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Jolly Trolly aka Summer Dawne - Lunoor - 07-20-2010
Hi,
There were some good observations and useful advice for me in Jolly Trolly's "All Those Who Have Banned Freedom are not Going Anywhere"
post # 2. Too bad I can't re-read it to refresh my memory.
Summer Trolly can be a big pain in some asses(been so in mine at times) but(so what) this blanket censoring/ban sucks. Why not let folks choose which posts/posters to read and respond to. You can see by comparing various view counts that they are able to do so. I prefer to decide for myself.
Summer Dawne was banned for editing some of his posts down to a few of these: ... he did this editing after a post he made was removed by administrators. I recall this because a day or so after his post was removed I was looking for his old posts on the Tenant thread to re-read and was disappointed when I found them missing. Tit for tat I guess. Too bad for a someone paying attention.
I understand that sometimes a line must be drawn but this reminds me of school days; isn't there some other way to deal with it besides this annoying ban/censorship? Maybe people could speak up when they don't like something he said or let him know those dots are pretty annoying.
!SUMMER DAWNE! all those dots blotting out your piper stories are !DAMN ANNOYING!
--Lunoorbluenoordreaming
Jolly Trolly aka Summer Dawne - Eilias123 - 07-20-2010
I'm not censoring summer dawn. I banned him for a valid reason. and he just whined like a baby. Now, he's creating alts, and signing in from different IPs. I'm sorry... But any other community I have been on would permanently ban someone like that. I respect people for their uniqueness and craziness. But if they aren't helping give this forum a decent community feel and cause havoc on the forum, attacking other members and then deleting all of his own posts i'm left with no choice but to keep him banned. (unless lonewolf wants a say in this). HE'S CENSORING HIMSELF by deleting his own posts. If you want his help... get his email.
Lonewolf has made it clear that he won't be around forever. If I am to stay here as admin I have to help this community set a higher standard.
Jolly Trolly aka Summer Dawne - Nagual LoneWolf - 07-21-2010
Summer Dawne has over the years posted in this forum and when he becomes angry edits his posts to a few dots. If he is always going to do this then his posts will not be around for others to read. This does cause problems for forum continuity. I stand behind Eilias in this moderation decision and have done the same myself before many years ago. We ,I enjoy Summer Dawnes posts. His problem, he acts the spoiled child. Every moderator must decide when should he act in these types of activity. When does he cross the line or act unfairly. What is unfair? Eilias has agreed to help me moderate this forum and thus he has my support as long as he acts fairly and with the members and the forum's welfare at heart.
Jolly Trolly aka Summer Dawne - Lunoor - 07-21-2010
Thanks for the good explanations eilias and wolf : D I do understand you guys points but I don't like banning. I also note this forum as being one of the least banning forums I know of, I recall insults directed at wolf that just about anyone else would have banned for. I appreciate that tolerance. Yet I recall from another forum I am on sometimes, a guy who was posting topics polar opposite to the purpose of the board, at first seemingly in order to discuss but as time went by it became clear that he was baiting people and not really interested in discussion or learning or teaching or anything except trying to get people to flip out and become as ignorant as he was. Instead as people realized what he was up to they began to tell him they did, directly and with wit---with regularity, very soon he quit coming to the board. Then a little over six months later he came back edited all of his posts to this simple word:
Peace
That experience informs and influences me.
I am not making predictions regarding summer dawne based on that guy, rather, pointing out the efficiency and surprising possibilities of actions taken by individual(s)ingroup intent.
I am also not comparing summer dawne's intentions to his. I often puzzle over summer dawne's intentions. I find many of his his posts to be illuminating yet I don't think he is enlightened rather I think he is as he is in a way that informs me he has lived intensely and that is enlightening and enlightened(it's not a contradiction). Enlightenment as some mountain you stop on top of is not too appealing to me anyway.
I don't think you guys are "the bad guys" or any of that cop shop talk. I am simply letting you know how I see it because it feels better to do so--I like to be as I am.
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Summer Dawne, one little fish that nibbles me and I don't have an answer for--are you benefiting here or hiding out from some little fish? Your answer is none of my business.
Jolly Trolly aka Summer Dawne - Nagual LoneWolf - 07-21-2010
Thanks for understanding Lunoor. This forum has been around since 2001. Early in its first years Summer Dawne who was known back then as the "Tenant" came and posted alot. He posted some wondrous stuff and I found him a refreshing warrior with the point of view of a 'tenant'. I created a subforum for him that was extremely popular here and it was filled with hundreds of posts by Summer Dawne aka. The Tenant. Back then the ezboard forum called 'Sustained Reaction' was basically 'at war' with this one and there were many cross over members including the main man of SR. The argument was if there is such a thing as a nagual. Summer Dawn was a key player and I feel he was set upon by members of SR, henchman Ghost Dog and moderators thus his hatred of 'moderators'. This forum eventually won over SR and Sustained Reaction went into the decline and is basically a empty forum these days. Incidentally the same thing happened to Lujan Matus at SR a and he eventually created his forum Parallel Perception after being a member here for a short period. PP as many know has not experienced the continued success this forum has enjoyed for nine years with thousands of posts and members from around the world. The Tenant enraged at his treatment at SR reacted by editing all his posts with '---', hundreds of his posts. I limited his editing powers in his subforum and he demanded all his posts be removed which I honored. Eventually his explosive anger issues caused me to ban him for a short period. As you may know I very much dislike banning people and only do it when there appears to be no other way to deal with them. I have learned alot over the years on moderating forums such as this one. So you see this is a long time issue with a long time member and i think SD expects to be banned when he does such things. There is one fix though. I can make every post a member makes uneditable thus no one could edit their posts. If the majority of members agree to this we could unban Summer Dawne.
Jolly Trolly aka Summer Dawne - Gonzo - 07-21-2010
@NLW -
I had to do the same with my forum for exactly the same reasons. I recommend the change and would welcome the unbanning of SD.
Jolly Trolly aka Summer Dawne - Lunoor - 07-21-2010
Thanks Lone Wolf. I don't have much time at the moment and am of mixed feeling on what you suggest wolf, I do like to be able to edit my posts because I don't always get them right on the first go and not always the second either : ) I will give that some thought and get back to you later.
Jolly Trolly aka Summer Dawne - Gonzo - 07-21-2010
I might add, the easiest way to deal with a forum that does not allow editing, is to write your posts, either quoted replies or originals, in Word, or WordPad, then post and use the Preview capability.
Jolly Trolly aka Summer Dawne - Lunoor - 07-22-2010
Oh Wolf, I am reluctant to say yes to something that curtails flexibility indefinitely for all in order to have summer dawne back in less than three months and he might not even come back for three months or more anyway. Excepting gonzo and myself other members aren't posting an opinion on this so far. I will be patient for his return; I say nay to less flexibility. I thank you for suggesting another option and yes I have noticed you don't often ban people here, SD is the only one I know of since I have been coming here since 2008.
Jolly Trolly aka Summer Dawne - Eilias123 - 07-22-2010
lujan was banned last year wasn't he?
Jolly Trolly aka Summer Dawne - Lunoor - 07-22-2010
Perhaps he was Eilias, if so I don't recall it.
Jolly Trolly aka Summer Dawne - Nagual LoneWolf - 07-24-2010
Lujan was banned for a short period but was reinstated. I hear you Gonzo. This matter is to be taken up with Eilias who banned SD, I am offering an explanation of member history and possible cure.
Jolly Trolly aka Summer Dawne - Mornings Son - 07-26-2010
SD did exsemplify that nothing is permanent. For me, I read his post more intense than other posts as I knew they might be gone soon.
Jolly Trolly aka Summer Dawne - Eilias123 - 07-27-2010
I am for what lonewolf proposes. not being able to edit posts. Think about it guys: If every jumped on the SD bandwagon and edited all their posts to nothing, this would be an empty forum... what would be the point?
Jolly Trolly aka Summer Dawne - Tiff - 07-28-2010
First, congrats on being a forum since 2001!
On SD, I do not know what his posts are about, eveytime I logged on they were already "." lol
I like what Lunoor said about allowing his expression, but on the editing part...I think its one of the nice aspects of SW. Only on a handful of occasions did I use editing to "take out". Most of the time I use it to add in to a singular post, such as I get a thought later on in the day and it applied to that post so I add it so its a coherent whole. Other times I corret mistakes (lol I;m leavign that one as it is). Believe it or not, I do do a correction before I post, but I somehow still miss things, murphy's law, I see it the second after I hit post,lol. So its nice to fix boo boos such as when you meant to type the word "don't" but you typed the word "do" by accident, which completely reverses what you said, lol.
But that can be fixed mostly by carefully reading over your posts before you post (in my case rereading what I've already reread). I don't mind what the decision ultimately is (really don't ,lol) and will not feel much has changed if editing is taken away...just wanted to share what I like about the editing feature. Either way I respect the decision, I know moderating a forum has all these nuances that are to be dealt with. It seems each decision making process is unique. And since I don't know SD, or what his contributions offer, I cannot comment on that aspect, except to say I recognize others have appreciated his presence so that's enough to warrant an exception perhaps.
Jolly Trolly aka Summer Dawne - Nagual LoneWolf - 07-28-2010
Thanks for your input Tiff. Summer Dawn aka. The Tenant is of course aware of whether the editing feature is on or off. As far the editing feature we can use or not use it for all or one of the forums. My suggestion is when Eilias123 unbans SD he only allow him access to this particular sub- forum as it is favorite and then removed the editing feature for this sub-forum only for all the members. Summer D is a marvelous writer but tends to get bent and aggressive towards moderators.
Jolly Trolly aka Summer Dawne - Eilias123 - 07-28-2010
I have no problem with people editing their posts... but please edit it so that it still says something. If SD doesn't create any more Alts by the 1st of august i will put forth what lonewolf suggested and unban SD. i also hope that SD won't whine about moderators or go on a big rant about it.
Jolly Trolly aka Summer Dawne - Tiff - 07-29-2010
Limit it to one sub-forum...that sounds like an option good for everyone.
"i also hope that SD won't whine about moderators or go on a big rant about it."
If the case, if he has a problem with moderators in general (potential authority issues???), it seems you have no choice but to ban him. Forums need moderators so they don't go bezerk with crazy posts and so various duties can be performed on a regular basis and so forth. I am glad forums have moderators, don't see how they would function meaningfully without them.
Forum interacting is interesting. Its is so much easier to say and do things on a forum then would be done in face to face situation, therefore, that may be why forum expression for some is very aggressive. They use it like therapy, like Lunoor says. But also other people use forums for information exchange, so there has to be some distinctions made on the aggression issue, otherwise forums can lose those participants that are trying to have meaningful exchanges. I say one distinction is repeated behavior. If a participant has repeatedly demonstrated abuse of forum rules and abuse toward those who moderate, after given chances and warnings etc, that warrants some action to limit such behavior. You can also limit SD's posts per day limit.
Jolly Trolly aka Summer Dawne - Lunoor - 07-29-2010
Hi folks,
No offense tiff but I didn't say anything about people using forums as therapy, I'm not sure what I said that might have suggested that to you, maybe because I asked summer dawne if he was benefiting here? I wasn't thinking in terms of therapy though, the question was for summer dawne to interpret and answer as he sees fit, or not.
I am not for punishment, I am not for moderating, I am not for authority except the authority of one's own experience, however, if someone speaks with authority I pay attention as much as I am able.
The story I told about the other forum was to show an example of an alternative to banning and centralized authority, in that case the people as individuals through a group acted in an efficient manner to defend themselves without the intervention of a moderator, such was the group intent. I know that is different than the way things are ordinarily handled in forums. There are always alternatives, just because you don't see them doesn't mean they aren't there.
I would prefer it if summer dawne was unbanned and unmoderated but I don't expect that to happen; since banning for three months was the stated original intent why not leave it at that instead of enacting yet more restrictions?
I want my view on things to be clear; I am not happy that my earlier expression might have contributed to more restrictions being placed.
Jolly Trolly aka Summer Dawne - Tiff - 07-29-2010
No I just meant what you said about that other poster who ended up coming back and writing "peace" it did sound therapeutic and I meant it not as you called it therapy so forgive my sounding like I put words in your mouth and I know you did not state that. I do believe it helps in the long run, all this expression and getting it out in the open in a format that is safer than real day to day situations. Just there is a line that needs to be drawn and this is usually indicated by how many chances one has been given to respect others and if after a long while there is still a lack of respect, the forum risks losing its "better members" and by better I mean those who are considerate and thoughtful.
Without moderators all sorts of awful thing can happen, such as spammers, hackers, viruses, very violent and cruel attacks on people not known.
Its a complex web, we all affect each other and moderators have the task to figure out whats the best balance. Its easy for us to say what we like or don't like, but we are not the ones responsible for a forum when we say these things.
The moderators here are very low profile, staying out of nearly everyone's posting freedoms. I see no reason for them to be attacked, do you?
"I am not for punishment, I am not for moderating, I am not for authority
except the authority of one's own experience, however, if someone
speaks with authority I pay attention as much as I am able." ~Lunoor
I'm not for punishment either, but even in the case of that other forum you mentioned, some action was taken so the participant began to have second thoughts about what he was doing, so there was a learning process. Some action had to be taken here, to stop the momentum of SD erasing posts. I kept reading so many that were just "." How long was he planning to keep doing that?
Jolly Trolly aka Summer Dawne - Tiff - 07-29-2010
And Lunoor, there is another way to look at this, it appears, from everything said here about what occurred, that Summer Dawne was trying to punish moderators by editing posts. Not cooperating is a form of punishment to those who seek cooperation. Its a type of rebellion that uses a tactic which is to have the upper hand. Its often a very gray area that can be misrepresented, such as when people disagree its not necessarily rebellion on one's part, its a disagreement, but in the case here it seems pretty straightforward as erasing posts as just a means to dominate. Because he feels dominated over.
Jolly Trolly aka Summer Dawne - Eilias123 - 07-29-2010
I have seen lonewolf bark at other members for editing their posts blank. I know he is not fond of it. And really people come here to learn and read. It just makes no sense. I have a hard time with authority too. I'm not anyone's enemy, i have no desire to dominate anyone. This isn't an ego or power based trip. SD is seeing this as the way he wants to see it. He is seeing enemies where there is none.
and lunoor, i am trying to help make the forum appealing to new members coming in... If I and Lonewolf let everyone run rampant with their own agendas of insulting other members on a daily basis, people like lujan trying to sell products, and people who have no desire or wish to contribute to a friendly community but only wish to cause trouble... Not many good members would stick around... and it would probably attract many more unwanted negative members.
In an Ideal world there would be non need for moderators, but this isn't an ideal world. this is the best think lonewolf can think of for a compromise.
Jolly Trolly aka Summer Dawne - Nagual LoneWolf - 07-29-2010
I agree. Sometimes a solution doesn't automatically pop up. After discussion and thought I came up with what I think is a good solution but I didn't think of it right away. Thats why discussion is good to help solve disputes. This type of forum is thread based. A thread is written conversation with a topic. Threads that generate into other random directions usually end with a question mark. Threads that start and have good momentum and have some meaningful conversation will be missed when the original thread starter poster who goes back and edits his post blank thus ruining it for all. If a poster wants his post removed we will remove it but leave a note. The problem is often the original post being removed leaving the thread hanging.
Lujan did the same thing when he was here, he began removing all his posts believing they were "his property" which is not true. Posts made in open forums are public posts and no ownership rights exist. I have received pm's from members advising they do not like negative posters and left this community because they were attacked or provoked by other members. The members who have traditionally come here are those who seek positive experiences and meaningful conversations, thus I/we try and keep that feeling in the forums.
Jolly Trolly aka Summer Dawne - Tiff - 07-30-2010
"Lujan did the same thing when he was here, he began removing all his posts believing they were "his property" which is not true. Posts made in open forums are public posts and no ownership rights exist."
Yes, one time he thought he magically had the power to remove his posts here. He obviously at that time was not aware that all members here have the delete feature because at PP at that time members did not have that option so he assumed so was the case here and told me about it gleefully one day that he magically (via a gazing technique) got the delete feature active here and deleted his posts. It was little boo boos like this that slowly helped me to wake up to who I was dealing with.
He can say I made this story up...but can you really make something this ridiculous up? Please, I'm not that creative, lol.
This is not a put down to Lujan BTW (PPers) just showing he's human like everyone else. He tries too hard to be above us all. We all try to put our best face forward, hate to lose face, lol. Hate to feel foolish. But its worse to think we are "so special", that's a prison hard to get out of. As his students you should be helping him learn humility, not feeding his sense of importance.
on to other things...
This forum, always having had the edit and delete feature, kudos for that. It just makes the task for the moderators more challenging, so kudos to them. I know if it ever gets really out of hand, restrictions will be necessary to keep the better members, I just hope that never happens, but would fault the immature ones for making this happen. Because they really have no regard for the forum, and there are people here who do and appreciate this place as a place to communicate respectably. Not having to agree with one another, but just respect the communication process.
Jolly Trolly aka Summer Dawne - Eilias123 - 08-01-2010
I have given summer dawn's original username : summer dawne access to this forum. there is no more editing posts in this forum for now.