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Why Bother? - SilvioManuel - 12-31-2018
I don't understand how you're all still on the sorcerer's path. And sorry, but I can't bring myself to believe that any of you are actual seers or warriors. I have been "trying" to focus on silence and what really matters lately but it's way too hard. The enemy has bested us in a fashion that is beyond our language. It is truly horrible what is going on, and the more I try the more I see it. I don't think one can actually practice sorcery without a teacher. Here are some excerpts from the books
ANOTHER SORCERER IS NEEDED TO GUIDE A NOVICE IN THE NAGUAL
We cannot be on our own while being in the left side awareness and have to be cushioned by warriors who have gained totality of themselves and know how to handle themselves in that state. EG,299.
BECOMING AN APPRENTICE WAS NOT A PERSONAL CHOICE, BUT A DESIGN OF POWER
neither is it a matter of personal choice who is selected to learn the sorcerer's knowledge that leads to that awareness. The decision of picking you was a design of power; no one can discern the designs of power. TOP,58.
THE SPIRIT SOMETIMES HAS TO TRICK A PERSON INTO BECOMING AN APPRENTICE
only a crackpot would undertake the task of becoming a man of knowledge of his own accord. A sober headed man has to be tricked into it. SR,28
...because of man's unwillingness to understand, the spirit was forced to use trickery. And trickery became the essence of the sorcerer's path. POS, 23
Sorcerer's are convinced that all of us are a bunch of nincompoops..we can never relinquish control voluntarily (of our tonal) thus we have to be tricked...you were convinced that that trickery was directed at fooling your reason...for me, tricking meant to distract your attention, or to trap it as the case required. TOP, 232
The way I see it, all of you who are stuck between the world of a sorcerer and the world of an ordinary man are in a most horrible limbo of your own doings, as am I. Defining sorcery as shifting the AP, I'm sure there are many here who have flirted with it and can be called sorcerers, but warriors...? How can you possibly endure the warrior's life without a teacher? Think about the unbelievable complexity of Don Juan's teaching over the years and how his lineage developed it. As far as I can see, most ones on this forum are people who have or are trying to have somewhat polished tonals (maybe even clean ones) whilst flirting with sorcery. But I don't see how a sad bunch like us can possibly have any chances of attempting the flight into the abstract without being obliterated by the forces of infinity.
I will still do my best at everything I do and whenever I have enough emphasis I will try to obtain inner silence. I will also keep on practice dreaming and continuously clean and polish my tonal, but other than that, I see nothing. Like Carlos feels about his father; I never had a chance.
Why Bother? - watergaze - 12-31-2018
ANOTHER SORCERER IS NEEDED TO GUIDE A NOVICE IN THE NAGUAL
We cannot be on our own while being in the left side awareness and have to be cushioned by warriors who have gained totality of themselves and know how to handle themselves in that state. EG,299.
It is true that it is safer and nicer to be in company, but it's not like one can't do it when on one's own. For example, one could injure oneself, but then one might not. It might be like going about somewhat blind, or being in a terrain one does not know - say like I'd go have a stroll in an Amazonian jungle :-). But it might be like a walk on a beach.
BECOMING AN APPRENTICE WAS NOT A PERSONAL CHOICE, BUT A DESIGN OF POWER
neither is it a matter of personal choice who is selected to learn the sorcerer's knowledge that leads to that awareness. The decision of picking you was a design of power; no one can discern the designs of power. TOP,58.
this quote has layers. One has to know more about power and what they mean by personal choice. We do things that are way beyond personal choice but we do them because we decided on something - maybe we just decided to follow spirit, to learn and to grow. Also keep in mind that they are talking about a specific way of doing stuff - in a secret lineage. This is not something that is relevant for most of us. If you look at it CC embarked on that journey over 40 years ago. And by providing the books, and also by others sharing their knowledge publicly, some things changed. We do not live in the same world as he did.
You also forgot the part that is about how no one can do anything for us. This quote might be from a bit different tradition but it applies: "When the student is ready the teacher appears."
people focus too much on the external and forget about the power of impeccable intent. And on the extensive hard amount of work one has to do on their own.
The trickery quote - sometimes I feel this applies to all kinds of learning and growth. Often we have no idea what we are getting ourselves into because we don't know what we don't know. Ofc with learning on the path of sorcery it is a bigger bite than anyone can imagine...
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Many people who come by here had or have a teacher or teachers, even if it is not like in the style of CC and DJ.
The way I see it, all of you who are stuck between the world of a sorcerer and the world of an ordinary man are in a most horrible limbo of your own doings, as am I.
This was also true for CC for many, many years. It is a natural step for someone on this path...
As far as I can see, most ones on this forum are people who have or are trying to have somewhat polished tonals (maybe even clean ones) whilst flirting with sorcery. But I don't see how a sad bunch like us can possibly have any chances of attempting the flight into the abstract without being obliterated by the forces of infinity.
Even if the only thing that I accomplish is a good tonal... it is worth it. It is not a small thing.
Looking at the final journey... that is something not even the sorcerer's of DJ's lineage were sure about. It would be extremely strange if you thought it is easy and that you can do it. The thing is that one tries to achieve something that is by all appearances impossible - that is what it means to be a warrior.
Why Bother? - Jos3ph - 12-31-2018
Here's a few paragraphs from Armando Torres' book "Encounters With The Nagual," that address this nicely. This book is long out of print but I found it at federaljack.com.
Another time, I asked him:
"Carlos, what determines an ordinary man's access to the sorcerers' knowledge?"
"Intent," he answered. "Man's intent has to make an offer to the spirit, and spirit must accept it, putting the means of evolution in his path. In other times, the only available way was to be directly pointed out to a nagual. Nowadays, an ordinary man has the opportunity to be guided through publications.
"When seeking access to the world of sorcerers, one must be prepared. An accidental encounter with power won't lead to anything, except to a brutal fright for the seeker who, from then on, will swear that sorcery is demon's work, or that everything is sheer falsehood.
"But a poorly conducted preparation, one which foments self- importance instead of increasing wonder and a desire to learn, becomes a near total obstacle for the apprentice. One who comes to the nagual saturated with beliefs on almost everything won't get the chance to continue.
"Therefore, the next requirement before entering the path of knowledge is a profound honesty. It is necessary to empty the harbor to make room for the new ship arriving, and to recognize that when it comes down to it, we don't know anything. Once that degree of preparation has been reached, the rest is a matter of luck. The spirit determines who will be chosen and who won't.
Why Bother? - Jos3ph - 12-31-2018
When I try to move forward and find nothing, find that I don't know.... I naturally fall back into what I do know.
Why Bother? - SilvioManuel - 12-31-2018
Thank you both for the answers.
Why Bother? - Jos3ph - 01-01-2019
You're welcome SilvioManuel! If our answers had meaning for you..... where did that meaning come from? From within your own awareness! Yes? The teacher whether a physical person or not is within your own awareness! Always.
We are like Carlos alone in the desert. The teacher has moved off into the darkness. Where is he? What's going to happen? Will I be annihilated? Or worse yet... Maybe nothing... Maybe nothing will happen! "***! Don Juan! Where are you!?!?"
So what do we do? We stay there! We stay in the desert, feeling everything that we don't want to feel. We trust the teacher even though it has seemed to vanish. I ask. I ask the teacher to direct my thoughts, to bring into my mind what I need to know. I feel in my heart if there is a direction to move. And I don't know! The art is to stay where I don't know and at the same time to build apon my existing knowledge.
I think that any master is someone who has mastered the art of staying in that place of not knowing. Someone who is humble enough to accept what it brings no matter how it seems. Whether "small" or "great." Someone who has been doing that for a significant portion of linear time.
And someone who realizes that it truly is not up to us. We meet the moment as impeccably as we can and the rest... No one can truly say <3
Why Bother? - serloco - 01-07-2019
Well there are allies, and iobs to learn from. I spent many years following allies then to be lost within the iob world for over a decade. Now, years after, I have finally taken back all that lost power i had invested in them.
Infinity is a definitive journey my friend. Infinity being limitless allows us to paint our experience with it. When I started i perceived infinity as a devastating force. It was a terrible perception to work with and offered me very lil. I learned to control that perception and begin to let it in to my world more, opening it up to become usable. Sure infinity is limitless power to do anything, and so why not use that power for control? Power without control could lead to annihilation indeed.
be careful, be wise.
Why Bother? - SilvioManuel - 01-08-2019
I'm not gonna give up. No way, just not possible. The way of knowledge has been shown to me, all I have to do now is pave it, and holy *** will that be hard. Well, it's my birthday tomorrow, and I made a promise to the spirit. The earth will have spun X times around the sun, and maybe that will give me a boost.
Why Bother? - Jos3ph - 01-08-2019
Happy Birthday!!! All the best!
Why Bother? - watergaze - 01-08-2019
There was one thing I wanted to add to my previous post, but didn't get round to it until now (busy with creating the new site stuff). So I re-read the post again but being at a different part of life than I was some week ago... well, I went to check when I made my reply above but wow it was on the 31st lol just 2 days ago, it feels to me like over a week (this to me shows the shift I made since then). Anyway, I read it all again, here is what came out of that :-)
.
Silvio wrote:I don't understand how you're all still on the sorcerer's path. And sorry, but I can't bring myself to believe that any of you are actual seers or warriors. (...) Defining sorcery as shifting the AP, I'm sure there are many here who have flirted with it and can be called sorcerers, but warriors...?
There is a reason why I think sorcery is a good name for a site such as ours. It is true that many seekers who come by here are not warriors. Becoming a warrior is already quite an accomplishment in my book. It requires discipline, strong will, and impeccable intent... and not running away from challenges (actually sometimes running towards them hehe).
But to get to what 'sorcery' actually is... yes, it is about shifting the AP. To arrive at the place of stopping the world (to the functional blocking of the first ring of power) and beyond.
.
Silvio wrote:I don't think one can actually practice sorcery without a teacher.
You just said above how people who come by are more likely sorcerers than warriors. Sorcery, the way you define it (which I like), can be done without teachers (shifting the AP can be done without teachers). I think it is possible to practice shifting the AP without teachers. The question is what likelihood one has to go all the way to stopping the world without any help. But I think it is possible...
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Silvio wrote:How can you possibly endure the warrior's life without a teacher?
I think the question here is more like this: How can one possibly endure the warrior's life?
And here we come to the thing I wanted to add into my previous reply... I wanted to tell you about the importance of loving this way of life. If one doesn't enjoy growth and learning and being with spirit in the magic of it all... then I don't think the person stands a chance. This is the thing we need to develop first and foremost... love for learning, growth, wonder, and the feeling of gratitude to be able to experience all of that. Because in some way the life of a warrior and the life of a 'common man' (lets call it) are the same. We all try to do the things we love and enjoy. Someone enjoys fishing, someone enjoys spending time with their family, someone loves to travel. They work to get the money and means to do those things and arrange the time in such a way that they can do them once in a while and/or as much as they are able to.
Most of us don't enjoy uncertainty, fear, pressure, weakness, indecision, most people don't want to work hard... if there is nothing that you enjoy or love in it then most people wont do that. In some sense the warrior's path is asking people to go willingly into hell and walk through it without going crazy or complaining much, without being given almost any/a minimum of sign posts or maps of the place and even doing it with a smile at some point.
This is why they say no person would choose such a path.
Which is why they say it is not a choice. But what is a choice? I think it is a choice on some level. Imagine someone being so very ill they cannot live life like a 'common man.' One might say they had no choice, they had to shift in order to be able to live. But one might also say that is not true because others in similar situations don't make such a choice and stay in their prisons. One might say the person was chosen by spirit - you surely know the self-healed madman/shaman theme. If it is so extreme that the person is basically barred from life unless they do something about it. Then one could say that the situation gave them no choice. But truly there are so many terribly ill people on the globe and they are not all on the path of knowledge. So why were those others not forced into it? Because it still is a choice. No one takes the choice away (to a certain point at least, because there is a point of no return but one can get there thanks to one's choice, but ofc not only that). It is just that the strength of their will and intent has to be insurmountably bigger if they have to get out of their situation and problems (or it seems so at least). What would make this so? What would make them want to do all that hard work? Love for life, the wish to enjoy and experience it, to feel healthy and part of everything that is alive. But, another factor that is to their erm advantage in making the choice is that the fire under their butts is very hard to ignore :-D.
This is one way... but it is not the only way. I just wanted to point out there is more happening in that 'it is not a choice'. It is not a choice for a person who wants to grow and who has certain preferences for and demands of life. But it is a choice in the sense that many don't choose it.
And what is life, what is being alive? it is growth. Everything that is alive grows and changes, evolves. You gotta love that even if it brings states of insecurity or weakness etc.
Then it gets easier. You find boulders on your path that are the size of a city and you think omg I'm never going to get through this thing... but then by some 'miracle' (a ton of hard work) you do. And you come to another boulder and you have that same feeling of hopelessness but then the 3rd time around you know... you know it is possible. That feeling of hopelessness can't get a hold of you in exactly the same way any more. What's more, if you keep at it, something else comes into the picture and starts helping you... then one experiences the next level of gratitude :-) (and a shimmer of hope).
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Silvio wrote:The enemy has bested us in a fashion that is beyond our language
I was wondering who is the enemy in this sentence of yours, hm?
----
well, took me a while to come to finish this message, so now the time indicators at the start of it are already out of date .
To make up for my lateness hehe I found a nice quote linked to what is sorcery:
The Active Side of Infinity wrote:He patiently explained to me that the interruption of that flow of continuity that
makes the world understandable to us is sorcery. He remarked that I had
journeyed that day through the dark sea of awareness.
(…)
My mind was focused on an insoluble dilemma: I was alive despite the fact that I
had jumped into an abyss in order to die ten hours before. I knew that such a
dilemma could never be resolved. My normal cognition required a linear
explanation in order to be satisfied, and linear explanations were not
possible. That was the crux of the interruption of continuity. Don Juan had
said that that interruption was sorcery.
Why Bother? - Jos3ph - 01-08-2019
I was watching the Digital Consciousness TV Interview with Lujan on YouTube and I will say that my heart just activated. That's why we do it.
Thank you for the reminder watergaze! That is all to easily forgotten!
The Warrior's Path is also know as a Path With Heart, not The Path of Unendurable Suffering, or the Path of Grudging Acceptance, or... Lol! Ya get the idea...
Why Bother? - glance left - 01-08-2019
: ) I think I remember DJ saying something like the Path With Heart is a joy to follow and so on and so forth.
From my experience I've found that my ego would love to spin a tale about how "hard" its been to follow this path.....so it can have something to brag about around the dinner table ; ) . Honestly, The Path of Unendurable Suffering, seems to ironically be engendered by the bramble-filled underbrush of the path that perennially deviates from the Path With Heart. Friction....discord.....dialog driven compulsive madness.....nightmares.....paranoia.....paucity of energy.....boredom....fatigue....hatred.....strife.....blah blah blah...on and on and on. Interminable and unendurable! Whew! Thank heaven for returning to the Path With Heart, OMG! Where things are fresh....clear....potent.....brimming with energy....abstract affection...possibilities....adventure....depth of understanding and of experience....delightful weirdness without end.....and friendship! All of the good stuff : )
I heard about this guy who fell into a river. At first, a prolonged nightmare of thrashing...clawing....straining against insurmountable currents and twirling eddies...cuts...bruises....being bashed into unconsciousness only to awaken to the urge to fight amidst pure panic and fear again....on and on and on. Finally, he says, he just could not fight any more and just let go while simply aiming to stay afloat. Naturally, the current funneled him to the center of the river which effortlessly bore him down stream. The more he let go, with only slight, relaxed, calibrating adjustments to subtly redirect himself to the center....the more swiftly and smoothly he was sped along. He was finally deposited to the shore 100's of miles downstream, to his utter delight!
And then he promptly walked to the nearest village to brag to the locals about how far he'd swum : )
Why Bother? - watergaze - 01-09-2019
lol great story :-)
I think of it as it was hard at some parts but not because I was on the path but because I was so long not on it. And all the harder parts were temporary to make it way easier later.
I don't think it needs to be hard though. I think some people are more stubborn than others haha. The story is a case in point...
Why Bother? - SilvioManuel - 01-09-2019
The enemy I was referring to is the foreign installation, since it's the source of the tragic deviation of man's attention.
Why Bother? - glance left - 01-09-2019
"I don't think it needs to be hard though. I think some people are more stubborn than others haha."
: D My life is a case in point. 8.5 on the stubborn/obstinacy scale. Could be worse, I suppose. But you're right : )....stubborn-ness makes the path seem hard....when its not. More irony.......irony, irony, irony! : D Stubborn-ness.....the clenched fist......the clenched body.....the writhing, clenched mind so full of judgment/self-judgment, opinions, worrying about opinions, obsessive categorization, jockeying for position, vain imagination, speculation. Stubborn-ness makes things hard......fixates the world....my perspective. Solid objects all around to stub my toe....or get crushed against and buried into eventually. It's a perspective....nothing more....nothing less. The clenched fist can be relaxed....slowly at first, to let the rigors loosen......and then opened out....unfolded.
It seems insoluble....impossible to unravel the whole mess. In the beginning, ofc....
Until, a glimpse of clarity filters through. A single, shining moment of silence (a gift!) in which I can apprehend this vast, infinite volume of clear, empty space which pervades/surrounds every letter, syllable, phrase, sentence, paragraph, story/life sentence/epic novel of the dialog driven personal history/social history/world history. Until I find out that I can inhabit that space which grows and grows when emphasized....all born of even paid attention to it for a moment. Single moments like these pop up here and there.....pretty rare initially (for some of us dummies : ) )....but then more and more frequently, gathering momentum....finding one another perhaps close by until, like long lost friends, they join hands....and merge....to form TWO moments! OMG!! It's happening! Silence is gathering itself!....the solution becomes apparent! So obvious!
And the rest....as they say....is academic ; )
Why Bother? - glance left - 01-09-2019
"The enemy I was referring to is the foreign installation, since it's the source of the tragic deviation of man's attention"
I don't want forget the comedy side of tragedy! : D. They go hand in hand.....ironically lol.
Why Bother? - SilvioManuel - 01-09-2019
You're absolutely right when you say comedy goes hand in hand with tragedy. That's why existential comedy is by far the best and also the source of all of true comic genius.
Why Bother? - glance left - 01-09-2019
"Existential comedy" I like that. That's a keeper. I'll be sure to look for it intently today, so I don't miss it! : D
Thank you, my friend
Why Bother? - serloco - 01-10-2019
I never really bought into the flyer garbage. I already knew when i read it that if i agreed to its existence then it would be real by y own willingness to give it said reality. Then, much later on i did indulge a lil in its existence and experienced it. I hated it immediately and disbelieved in it once again, effectively ridding it from my own mind. I much rather prefer the silence and careful control of my own mind.
Why Bother? - watergaze - 01-10-2019
Choices.. or natures?
for some it helps to focus on the process of the battle..
for others its more helpful to focus on where to arrive..
some people figure out the steps in order to get somewhere
others go without knowing and arrive.
I arrived because I knew how..
I arrived because I went and wanted to...
I loved getting lost in unknown cities. You got no clue what is what, which street is closer or further to where you need/want to go. But somehow you arrive anyway.
Why Bother? - glance left - 01-10-2019
: D. Y’all are speaking my language, Serloco and WG!
Remembering what you said recently, Serloco....there’s more than one way to skin a cat : ).
The actuality of the flyer, from my perspective, is something ultimately likely undefinable. It’s a phenomenon of obstruction/interference somehow. It results in a diatribe of self-talk that captures my awareness, all supplied by historical mental trends. When the dialog is stopped and I look “upward”, so to speak, what’s left is a flickering disruption centered around the head which settles down progressively when impassively watched. I do better when I don’t think about it, don’t struggle to “remove” it forcibly. I just kind of stare at it.....and typically it just kind of stops flopping around. The key is not letting the disruption stir up thoughts to get lost in.
IDK.....just some personal impressions: )
Why Bother? - SilvioManuel - 01-11-2019
I know this is out of place, but I couldn't think of anywhere else to ask it, so here it goes:
How can one transmute sexual energy into dreaming energy?
Why Bother? - Jos3ph - 01-11-2019
From my own recent experience, I'd say that it just happens. When I practice sexual integrity the energy that wasn't spent naturally flows into dreaming.
For me alot of energy was being lost due to indulging in lust. I'm not taking about physical activity. Just looking and thinking and being in a state of lust for long periods of time.
Today I was reading TAOSPP and I was aware of dreaming at the same time. I haven't experienced something like that in the moment ever before. Once I went back through dreaming and recovered an experience like that, but this time I was aware of it as it happened.
I mention the above because it's really awesome and I'm excited about it, and I want you all to think it's cool too, and I believe that it was only possible because of having extra energy due to practicing sexual integrity.
Why Bother? - serloco - 01-11-2019
Sex uses the creative force, just as it does make babies. supposedly we only get so much, but i dont buy into that. I am an unlimited kind of guy. Just develop positivve knowledge bout creating, and activate only the best forms of knowledge.
Why Bother? - Jos3ph - 01-11-2019
My intention with my previous post was to be completely transparent and express any agendas that were present as well. I got it except for one word
If I change, "I want you all to think it's cool," to, "I want you all to think I'm cool," then it's complete.
Done. Thank you