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Retracing the Journey - Bob May - 08-27-2008
I was reading the Fire From Within and came upon this:
"When the nagual pushes that point," he went on, "the point ends up any which way along man's band, but it absolutely doesn't matter
where, because wherever it ends up is always virgin ground.
"the grand test that the new seers developed for their warrior-apprentices is to retrace the journey that their assemblage points took under the influence
of the nagual. This retracing, when it is completed, is called regaining the totality of oneself."
This hit me in a way that it never had before. I realize it is what I am supposed to do.
I had looked at it as a way to remember dreaming and what has gone on in that realm of practice. This is partially because of a feeling that I have and have
experienced that something or someone has been teaching me during dreaming. I sometimes even wake up "knowing things" that I did not before.
But this is not the entirety of this "retracing the journey." For myself, what is more important here is to re-experience the Spiritual experiences
that I have had. To retrace the methods and thoughts and meditations that brought them on.
"the point ends up any which way along man's band, but it absolutely doesn't matter where,"
This has been my experience in the past. My experiences have been "all over the map" so to speak. But I remembered two things my teacher said which
fit these two methods together.
1. "Sometimes a student is given an experience that is wayyy beyond their abilities." ...and...
2. "To repeat an experience all you have to do is remember the feeling."
I am going to work on this and also add some more here of what I see as the "warrior's task" or as don Juan calls it here the "grand
test."
I have some more thoughts, but have to go to work right now. Later!
Retracing the Journey - Bob May - 08-27-2008
"This has been my experience in the past. My experiences have been "all over the map" so to speak. But I remembered two things my teacher said
which fit these two methods together.
1. "Sometimes a student is given an experience that is wayyy beyond their abilities." ...and...
2. "To repeat an experience all you have to do is remember the feeling." "
I was thinking about this last night and I remembered another thing he said:
3. "The first time you experience something, it's a gift. The second time you've mastered that experience.
I see that as being true. At least the first half of that. I've always looked at those things as gifts. I've had experiences that seemed to have
"fallen" on me. Sometimes during meditations and sometimes while awake with no apparent volition on my part. (Though I know what I was thinking and
or doing leading up to those experiences. And what meditations I was practicing at those times in some cases.)
If I think those thoughts and do those meditations and attempt to remember the feelings I should be able to repeat those experiences.
That's why I believe he would have used the word "master."
I would be consciously causing those experiences to happen. In that case I would have been given those experiences in the first place so that I would have them
again later.
So that I would retrace my journey.
Retracing the Journey - grandspeculator - 08-27-2008
Good luck with that Bob. What you are commenting is a promising line of thought and action.
Retracing the Journey - Vrill - 08-28-2008
Bob:
This is a very good discussion. And you raised some excellent questions.
I have some questions, and I think I see a commonality with what I experience and what other seekers go through.
I think that I have spent maybe the last 25 years retracing my journey, based on experiences or encounters with Power.
I would say these experiences were characterized by a couple of factors.
I would get a tremendous amount of non-verbal information, of what I would characterize as Truth coming from an Infinite source.
The impressions of the experience, never fades and the information grows bases on the experience.
The experiences are well grounded in Reality, they come from Totality or a Self that is impersonal, and only at times when the ego is silent.
One struggles to re-integrate this new information for some time.
Learning to trust oneself, the process, the Path, and the Sangha, or community.
Finally, one has to let it go and move on, as much as one would like to relive it.
The suggestion about feeling the feeling is really good. In that sense it seems like the experience is not far from me at all.
So I think forging one's own path is in many ways based on Realization and the integration of that realization into one's life.
Ultimately I hope that the entire world is the beneficiary of this process.
So did anyone else have this experience of occasional "flooding of non-verbal information" or overload?
Reflecting on it, it's probably good that it now when this happens kind of rarely, since it takes a while to process the information.
Retracing the Journey - Bob May - 08-29-2008
"The impressions of the experience, never fades and the information grows bases on the experience."
I've come to the conclusion that the experience itself, being waking visions, visitations or whatever are not as important as what you learn from it.
And learning from this type experience is not an overnight thing. But it is still teaching after years as you see similar patterns in various writings.
"Finally, one has to let it go and move on, as much as one would like to relive it."
I don't quite agree here. My teacher seemed to say the same thing but I think what he meant was that we try to rationalize it and "figure it out"
all at once. Like I said it takes years.
But if we were not supposed to relive it, or at least revisit the realm it came from, why give instruction on how to do it?
These Spiritual experiences shock you and make you think about them for quite some time after they happen. At some point you have to put them in the background
and move on, yes. But they are always there to measure reality against, and I believe, to be repeated later on after a maturity has been reached.
Another thing that happens immediately following such experiences is that a person is still in heightened awareness for days or weeks afterwards.
At least that has been my experience. Much is learned from this too. Heightened awareness might be too mild a word for it. In these periods after what I see as
a major Spiritual experience happening, my world changes. I see people differently. Sometimes as animals, some as demons. It is as if I am experienceing
different levels of "this world". It may be what don Juan calls the shift below or a lateral shift of the assemblage point.
Retracing the Journey - Vrill - 08-29-2008
But if we were not supposed to relive it, or at least revisit the realm it came from, why give instruction on how to do it?
You are right, since what one learns from contact with Objective Reality is life changing, we can't just walk away from it. We are challenged
to practice what we learned to integrate it.
The import to such contact is to completely change one's world view. After the first contact one found that certain teachings were in agreement with it,
such as Buddhism. Christian sayings took on new import. Having some familiarity with the teachings made all the difference, saved one really.
In the last 30 years, I've had about half a dozen waking visions. Each one has been a lesson, and each lesson is very deep.
The last one after 9/11/2001 was an entire system of spiritual development. (!)
It's very elegant. I taught it as a class to people. And the one's that attended all of the sessions "got it". I could tell.
The point is to teach people how to transform the ordinary into the Sacred.
However the wisdom, the information did not come from me, it's only there if I can drop the ego, become selfless.
Then for me to remember my "system" all I have to do is take a conscious in-breath, and it's all there.
What really takes skill is to communicate this with other people.
So this is a Possibility we all have. Indeed it's the purpose of our existence.
I can imagine how disorienting this would be, if a person experienced near-complete ego loss, when they were completely identified, that they would think they
had gone nuts, since they would lose all of their reference points. However in my case it wasn't really a big deal, since I never felt a loss of control
over the process. The process was one I intended, could manage, etc. The only thing I can't manage of course it facing the unknown is always a brand new
experience.
Retracing the Journey - Bob May - 08-29-2008
Hi Vrill,
"I can imagine how disorienting this would be, if a person experienced near-complete ego loss, when they were completely identified, that they would think
they had gone nuts, since they would lose all of their reference points."
I think the loss of all reference points happens (and happened to me) when I stopped the world back in the 80's.
I saw the need for a "philosophy" in life at that time. It was a crazy ride that lasted months. Without some kind of structure, we are leaves in the
wind.
Different perceptions of the world each day.
The Ego loss is a part of the school of thought you subscribe to but all complete "systems", as far as I know, approach this goal as a gradual
process. It takes time and maturity to face the unknown with any kind of stability.
I look at these experiences as glimpses into planes or subplanes close to normal consciousness, (lateral shifts?, a shift below?) but definitely beyond the
veil. I have seen these things and visited these "realms" many times since then. Always brought on by stopping the internal dialog, but more intense
and lasting longer as a "residual effect" of a Spiritual experience. It took many "visits" to these realms before the fear factor
dissappeared. The difference was a philosophy or belief system and some maturity (or repitition/experience) in these things.
One experience I had was so strange to me that I still don't know of how I got there. It began in dreaming, but upon waking it continued for about half an
hour. As if the dream continued. So it was both dream and vision.
About 20 years later, I found this experience described. The "Gospel of Truth" in the Nag Hammadi Scrolls. Supposedly written by a guy named
Valentinious, a Gnostic Christian. His followers believed in the importance of Spiritual Experience and so were basically banned by the "Powers that
be." (Those who have there own connection to the Spirit cannot be controlled.)
Reading that was a great confirmation to me. Both that it was real (of which I had no doubt) but more importantly, that these things are Objective to the
extent that not only we can repeat them, but that we can visit or be visited by the exact same things as other people separated by hundreds of years of time.
His writing were not included in collections of scrolls later to be collected and used to make what we now know as the New Testament.
Retracing the Journey - Hawkeye Crow - 08-31-2008
Somewhere around here , there was a discussion about the fight Carlos had with Soledad , and about how don Juan set her up for it. Admitedly , I never have
known what to make of that , although there is explanation of a sort, later on.
I , too, just finished rereading 'Fire...' One thing I noticed about this book , more than once, is that its style is different somehow. A different
atmosphere.
This got me to thinking. Is it possible that these stories are actual representations of AP shift? Within all 10 books there is such a panorama of feelings,
places and events, different worlds in a sense. From Soledad to hidden experiences in heightened awareness' , to don Juans tales of Julian and his own
experience as an apprentice (I'm reading 'Power of Silence' now , especially the part about his family and his death!). I get a feeling of
Carlos being in separate realities upon various occasions. And don Juan in this book saying that his detachment was what gave him the ability to Love; that
when it turned into desperate passion he lost his effectiveness and was left with only '...mundane needs, desperation and hopelessness.'
That he failed without an Abstract Purpose. That his time with Nagual Julian was the first time he had never felt poor or needy.
Anyhow, that's a bit off track here, but I can't help myself with such an impressive observation.
Just what is AP? Sometimes I recall events of my childhood , and lately I have applied some focus to those memories , where I do recall feelings, sights
,sounds and try to recall smells even. I am sure that is AP. I go there, beyond where I am now, yet there leads to here.
Whew!
PS to Bob May: At least twice in the past year I have learned things about people I know or know of in my dreams like you mention. The amazing thing about
dreaming is that I only have to accept the idea of its possibility for it to occur . That's it. There is one sentence in all those books where don Juan
says that the crux of it all is the IDEA! Now maybe if I can get it thru my head I will come to understand that Mexican 'faith' surgery described in,
I think,'Fire From Within'. Hell. For myself I could settle for being a Carney or Gypsy fortuneteller sorcerer. But it too late for all that now as
I am too old and my fate is what it is. I'll tell you what though. When I was in my 20's I met people going that way , but I was too stiff and I did
not like it. One other thing. All my life I've had that little voice ; I've been calling it the Knock of the Spirit , erroneously perhaps. I never
knew what it was , I ignored it most of the time. It finally kicked my ass and I've been listening ever since. I have a few other abilities but I
can't recall right now. But those 7 hawks last month. What a blessing. I almost saw the energy fibers that brought us together!
One more thing as to this thread. You talk of ungrounded shifts. Just a few days ago I was watching cars on the road at work-break, and for an interval they
became alien to me , as if I had never seen them before. Once , I was recalling that feeling I have had going to a new place for the first time; the wonder
and exploration of it. The freshness and almost a sense of freedom at least if the place is comfortable. This is like my childhood, when my description of the
world , words and things, would lose their form and become strange or silly to me. Carlos writes an experience like that, where he is a baby under a chair
which he see as a bizarre structure with unusual textures.
Retracing the Journey - Bob May - 08-31-2008
"One more thing as to this thread. You talk of ungrounded shifts. Just a few days ago I was watching cars on the road at work-break, and for an interval
they became alien to me , as if I had never seen them before."
I get this too. It is from stopping the internal dialog. I can look at my hands sometimes and they look like foriegn objects. Like I don't know what hands
are.
Also, the car thing too. It seems to be a signal to me that it is beginning to happen because my sight "speeds up", so to speak. At those times I can
see the individual spokes on auto wheels as they go by. Once it got so deep and weird that it began with cars and then everything began to turn into white
light. I turned around and went home and called off work for the day. I didn't know how far it would go and I didn't know if I would be able to
drive,see, run machinery or even function at all.
" Once , I was recalling that feeling I have had going to a new place for the first time; the wonder and exploration of it. The freshness and almost a
sense of freedom at least if the place is comfortable. This is like my childhood, when my description of the world , words and things, would lose their form
and become strange..."
Sounds like progress to me Bob. You are remembering what it felt like to be a child. You get this in recapping and mind awareness big time.
Childhood is magical in a lot of ways that we don't even realise that we've forgotten.
"This got me to thinking. Is it possible that these stories are actual representations of AP shift? Within all 10 books there is such a panorama of
feelings, places and events, different worlds in a sense."
The first 4 or 5 books are all the same time period if I remember right. The Eagle's Gift is almost all about Carlos' and La Horda's quest to
recall things which they had completely forgotten but which had happened during this same time period. All second attention experiences and teachings. This was
the "Warrior's Task",.... To remember! And yes, it would have been an AP shift to have had those experiences it in the first place and then to
remember them again.
Retracing the Journey - Bob May - 08-31-2008
"But it too late for all that now as I am too old and my fate is what it is. I'll tell you what though. When I was in my 20's I met people going
that way , but I was too stiff and I did not like it. One other thing. All my life I've had that little voice ; I've been calling it the Knock of the
Spirit , erroneously perhaps. I never knew what it was , I ignored it most of the time. and my fate is what it is
It seems to take a long time for progress to show, but that may be because most of us get into these endeavors early in life. So, in addition to having to
learn a complete new way of looking at the world, we also have to raise families deal with the fast paced Western Cultural environment and also mature at the
same time.
It wasn't so in days gone by. It is my understanding that certain "Mystery Schools" would not let a person in until they were 40 years old. These
Occult Schools demanded a certain amount of maturity in their students before they began to teach them.
"...and my fate is what it is...
All my life I've had that little voice ; I've been calling it the Knock of the Spirit , erroneously perhaps. I never knew what it was , I ignored it
most of the time. It finally kicked my ass and I've been listening ever since."
Then that is your fate. To listen to the Spirit.
I have been studying and practicing these subjects on and off since about 1974 when I first found Castanedas books. That's 34 years. I also got into other
things as you know.
I have had some (for me) earth shattering experiences.
My point is, if I had had only one such experience it would have all been worth it.
10
For every one that asketh receiveth; and he that seeketh findeth; and to him that knocketh it shall be opened.
11
If a son shall ask bread of any of you that is a father, will he give him a stone? or if he ask a fish, will he for a fish give him
a serpent?
12
Or if he shall ask an egg, will he offer him a scorpion?
13
If ye then, being evil, know how to give good gifts unto your children: how much more shall your heavenly Father give the Holy
Spirit to them that ask him?
"One more thing as to this thread. You talk of ungrounded shifts."
If I understand you right here I think you are referring to the "randomness" of the shifts Carlos experienced. Or the apparent variety of some of the
things that happened to me.
I look at it as not being random, but a case of Spirit knowing what I need to learn more than I possibly could. How would I know if I have never experienced it
before?
That there is a shift or expanding of awareness is the main thing, I think. And that there is a purpose in reliving them. That I will continue to learn from
past experiences, and that there will be others in the future. Paul said "I will have visions and revelations". It was not bragging. he knew these
things had happened to him and would happen again. He also knew the value of turning off the internal dialog and keeping his mind on higher things.
Keep going the way you are going and something is going to fall on you. Something good.
You are paying attention to things. They may seem small things but it is all the same process. Ther is no big or small.
Don Juan took Carlos on long excursions through the desert, hunting for power. They were watching for reaffirmations. Agreements from the world around them.
They were in essence Listening and Watching for signs from the Spirit. Signs just for them, like your hawks.
Retracing the Journey - dreamways - 09-01-2008
Bob May wrote:
It is my understanding that certain "Mystery Schools" would not let a person in until they were 40 years old. These Occult Schools demanded a
certain amount of maturity in their students before they began to teach them.
Can't remember where I heard this, but, supposedly, students in shaolin temples have to sweep the floors for 2 years before they are taught
anything. Then they are taught kung fu for several years, which is preparation for learning chi kung and eastern medicine, the whole point of being there in
the first place.
Retracing the Journey - Hawkeye Crow - 09-02-2008
I'm not running off to join the circus now, unless I'm forced to!
The thing is that just by paying attention, I boost these abilities I had all along.
Retracing the Journey - Vrill - 09-03-2008
dreamways wrote:
Bob May wrote:
It is my understanding that certain "Mystery Schools" would not let a person in until they were 40 years old. These Occult Schools demanded a
certain amount of maturity in their students before they began to teach them.
Can't remember where I heard this, but, supposedly, students in shaolin temples have to sweep the floors for 2 years before they are taught
anything. Then they are taught kung fu for several years, which is preparation for learning chi kung and eastern medicine, the whole point of being there in
the first place.
Gurdjieff didn't like to teach most people unless they were over 35. He said they hadn't lived through enough. Also the person really
has to value the teachings.
Retracing the Journey - grandspeculator - 09-03-2008
Vrill wrote:
dreamways wrote:
Bob May wrote:
It is my understanding that certain "Mystery Schools" would not let a person in until they were 40 years old. These Occult Schools demanded a
certain amount of maturity in their students before they began to teach them.
Can't remember where I heard this, but, supposedly, students in shaolin temples have to sweep the floors for 2 years before they are
taught anything. Then they are taught kung fu for several years, which is preparation for learning chi kung and eastern medicine, the whole point of being
there in the first place.
Gurdjieff didn't like to teach most people unless they were over 35. He said they hadn't lived through enough. Also the person really
has to value the teachings.
It's a question of tonal sobriety and viability. Most young people are fleetingly interested in spiritual subjects or they are interested for
the wrong reasons. As you get older and the pressures of the tonal life burdens you, you start to value the "paths to freedom" for what they are.
If you are sober and viable, it doesn't matter if you are 6 years old or 70. if you are not viable and seek the spiritual you will only find unviable
teachers and teachings.
Ain't that a ****?
Retracing the Journey - seeitall - 09-03-2008
grandspeculator wrote:
Vrill wrote:
dreamways wrote:
Can't remember where I heard this, but, supposedly, students in shaolin temples have to sweep the floors for 2 years before they are
taught anything. Then they are taught kung fu for several years, which is preparation for learning chi kung and eastern medicine, the whole point of
being there in the first place.
Gurdjieff didn't like to teach most people unless they were over 35. He said they hadn't lived through enough. Also the person really
has to value the teachings.
It's a question of tonal sobriety and viability. Most young people are fleetingly interested in spiritual subjects or they are interested
for the wrong reasons. As you get older and the pressures of the tonal life burdens you, you start to value the "paths to freedom" for what they
are.
If you are sober and viable, it doesn't matter if you are 6 years old or 70. if you are not viable and seek the spiritual you will only find unviable
teachers and teachings.
Ain't that a ****?
the only problem, after 40 you had wasted all your energy and your body is devastated.
I've managed to do that after 20
imo it matters greatly whether you are 6 years old or 70
Retracing the Journey - grandspeculator - 09-03-2008
seeitall wrote:
grandspeculator wrote:
Vrill wrote:
Gurdjieff didn't like to teach most people unless they were over 35. He said they hadn't lived through enough. Also the person
really has to value the teachings.
It's a question of tonal sobriety and viability. Most young people are fleetingly interested in spiritual subjects or they are interested
for the wrong reasons. As you get older and the pressures of the tonal life burdens you, you start to value the "paths to freedom" for what they
are.
If you are sober and viable, it doesn't matter if you are 6 years old or 70. if you are not viable and seek the spiritual you will only find unviable
teachers and teachings.
Ain't that a ****?
the only problem, after 40 you had wasted all your energy and your body is devastated.
I've managed to do that after 20
imo it matters greatly whether you are 6 years old or 70
When there is a will, there is a way. They are several ways of rejuvenating the tonal. Saying that you are weak or old are not reasons... they are excuses.
Doña Soledad was old and vitally devastated. The Nagual transformed her.
La Gorda, Julian, Juan... they were all dying when founded. The Nagual gave them life again.
Every effort counts. At the very least you will end your life with the right intent. Next time you'll surely do better, but if you don't act now, there
is no hope... now is the only time we got!
Retracing the Journey - Vrill - 09-03-2008
Well of course there's no hard and fast rule. (that would be silly) People mature at different rates.
Then there are reincarnate lamas, who are all ready prepared and they "get it" really fast.
Retracing the Journey - grandspeculator - 09-03-2008
Vrill wrote:
Well of course there's no hard and fast rule. (that would be silly) People mature at different rates.
Then there are reincarnate lamas, who are all ready prepared and they "get it" really fast.
Lamas aren't the only ones, but the most commonly known viable individuals from birth. I say viable, because being a Lama or mystic of any
tradition in your previous life is no guaranty of anything.
Tibetans do a great deal to give this viable individuals the right instruction, but in the end is up to them. Not all Lamas are fully realized. Some of them
are freaking insane... and it's not crazy wisdom!
But... spiritual power they have plenty.
Retracing the Journey - Bob May - 09-04-2008
Hi guys,
"Every effort counts. At the very least you will end your life with the right intent. Next time you'll surely do better, but if you don't act now,
there is no hope... now is the only time we got!"
Don Juan onnce said that stopping the world come a little at a time ,...and then all at once.
Spiritual experiences come to us because we are looking in that "direction",... Paying attention to the invisible side of this life. Ask and you
shall recieve, seek and you shall find.
Then, in an instant your world view can be changed and you realise that it is worth all of the effort that went into it. No matter if that effort spans 40
years or 40 days. You will have experienced personally something that 99% of the people on this earth do not even know exists.
Then you come to the realisation that you are very fortunate indeed.
Because it is a gift!
The effort expended was nothing more than a technique to change your "direction" so that you would recieve this gift.
Retracing the Journey - Bob May - 09-04-2008
"I'm not running off to join the circus now, unless I'm forced to!"
I heard of a boy who was raised in the circus. He had always held the dream of running away and joining a town.
Retracing the Journey - seeitall - 09-05-2008
grandspeculator wrote:
seeitall wrote:
grandspeculator wrote:
It's a question of tonal sobriety and viability. Most young people are fleetingly interested in spiritual subjects or they are
interested for the wrong reasons. As you get older and the pressures of the tonal life burdens you, you start to value the "paths to freedom"
for what they are.
If you are sober and viable, it doesn't matter if you are 6 years old or 70. if you are not viable and seek the spiritual you will only find unviable
teachers and teachings.
Ain't that a ****?
the only problem, after 40 you had wasted all your energy and your body is devastated.
I've managed to do that after 20
imo it matters greatly whether you are 6 years old or 70
When there is a will, there is a way. They are several ways of rejuvenating the tonal. Saying that you are weak or old are not reasons... they are excuses.
Doña Soledad was old and vitally devastated. The Nagual transformed her.
La Gorda, Julian, Juan... they were all dying when founded. The Nagual gave them life again.
Every effort counts. At the very least you will end your life with the right intent. Next time you'll surely do better, but if you don't act now,
there is no hope... now is the only time we got!
I agree. What I'm saying is when you decide to run a marathon, chances are good if you're
20, if you are 70 , only miracle can help. same with sorcery. When you cross a certain threshold,
the game is over. I don't remember Soledad story, but we do not have D.J. running in circles around us
to fix us. Julian, Gorda, Juan - they were all young.
Retracing the Journey - Bob May - 09-05-2008
"What I'm saying is when you decide to run a marathon, chances are good if you're
20, if you are 70 , only miracle can help. same with sorcery.
It is not the same. The physical body is not as important.
When you cross a certain threshold,
the game is over."
Where that threshold is is up to the individual barring any mental disorder like altzheimers. It can be at the death of the physical body.
Colonel Sanders didn't start selling chicken until he was in his 60's.
He's still selling it and he's been dead for 15 years. Where is his threshold?
Retracing the Journey - grandspeculator - 09-05-2008
Bob May wrote:
Colonel Sanders didn't start selling chicken until he was in his 60's.
He's still selling it and he's been dead for 15 years. Where is his threshold?
Intent is the threshold. If it is weak you will advance, if any, to a point when fear, clarity, power or old age will defeat you.
Defeated, you will not advance anymore for the rest of your natural life. (according to Don Juan)
If your Intent is unbending, there is no limit.
PS1: Colonel Sanders may still be selling, but he is no longer enjoying it here.
PS2: Post number 222... the three duckies!
Retracing the Journey - Bob May - 09-06-2008
"PS1: Colonel Sanders may still be selling, but he is no longer enjoying it here. '
Who knows, he might not have enjoyed it while he was here.
I was joking about Col. Sanders. He is used as an example in a lot of "think and grow rich" type books.
My point here is that the young tend to look at the appearance of things. Bigger is better, (physically) stronger is better, etc.
I always think of that line Yoda used in Star Wars, "Judge me by my size, do you?"
Many older people let themselves atrophy, that is true.
Many other older people know much but don't share what they know, especially with people they know won't recieve what they have to share.
Retracing the Journey - Nagual LoneWolf - 05-29-2009
Interesting how threads develop.