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Perspective - dreamways - 08-14-2008
"Dreaming , of course, is the crown of the sorcerers' efforts, the ultimate use of the nagual."
"The energy necessary to move the assemblage points of sorcerers comes from the realm of inorganic beings."
--Don Juan Matus
Check this out, Don Juan did not say that the nagual is the ultimate use of dreaming, he said that dreaming is the ultimate use of the nagual.
The nagual is the energy source for dreaming. Dreaming is the movement of the assemblage point, Stalking is the fixation of the position of the assemblage
point. Don Juan said that the energy for that movement, for dreaming, comes from inorganic beings. At some point, people have to realize that inorganic
energy and the nagual are the same thing. So, nagualism is first and foremost an inorganic affair.
Now, the modern sorcerers hypothesized that they could use this energy to attain freedom, to end up somewhere other than the inorganic realm. They don't
claim to have ever accomplished this, understand what "freedom" actually is, or even guarantee that it is viable. I can't help but think of the
words of this success coach:
"Make sure that when you set a goal you know exactly what you want....One of the biggest mistakes that people make is setting a goal for
something that sounds good in theory....Be realistic."
--Kent Jacobson
I think that if anyone wants to get to freedom through nagualism, that destination needs to be clarified first. Otherwise, it is just a theory that sounds
good.
Perspective - Nagual LoneWolf - 08-14-2008
Interesting insight Dreamways. The question past the question is: What is the inorganic's agenda with mankind/naguals? The indians believed the nagual
would attained freedom through three ways. One, after death of body they would skip past the eagle by recapitation. The second through dreaming: staying pass
the wall of fog into new territory. The third by a major shift of the ap.
Perspective - seeitall - 08-14-2008
Juan said that the energy for that movement, for dreaming, comes from inorganic beings.
from inorganic beings or inorganic realm ?
Now, the modern sorcerers hypothesized that they could use this energy to attain freedom, to end up somewhere other than the inorganic realm.
How many inorganic realms are there ? The twin world, the closest realm to ours, which CC described
in AOD , what else ? Are all the other worlds "in the onion" inorganic ?
I think that if anyone wants to get to freedom through nagualism, that destination needs to be clarified first. Otherwise, it is just a theory that sounds
good.
I like this abstract goal. What else is worth fighting for in this universe ?
Perspective - Bob May - 08-14-2008
"Make sure that when you set a goal you know exactly what you want....One of the biggest mistakes that people make is setting a goal for something that
sounds good in theory....Be realistic."
"Check this out, Don Juan did not say that the nagual is the ultimate use of dreaming, he said that dreaming is the ultimate use of the nagual."
"At some point, people have to realize that inorganic energy and the nagual are the same thing. So, nagualism is first and foremost an inorganic
affair."
In the study of the Qabala, there are many realms. As I interpret it the socerer's world and methods belong to the subconscoius realm.
The subconscious realm has never been my goal. And dreaming may be the ultimate use of the Nagual in his world or maybe that's just Carlos saying so.
Either way, you are right.
It is a trap. The entire world of sorcery is.
The ultimate tool to use in reaching higher planes are various forms of meditation (being still). Which type of meditation determines what the person will
experience and yes, you can move your assemblage point using these techniques.
This can bring you all the way to union with God even to the point of unmanifesting bodily. And to the fire from within or Kundalini awakening.
This is why I said that someone was holding back some information from someone somewhere. If Don Juan's party unmanifested they were practicing a method
that went way beyond what Carlos described in his books.
All energy comes from one source. There are many planes, each one infinite as I understand it. There is One Spirit running through it all. The planes or
subplanes that Carlos describes are all of the elemental level. Nature spirits and such.
You could probably explore it forever and not reach an end to it.
And not reach a higher plane either.
I also think Don Juan's definition of Nagual went beyond the quote above. I don't know about Carlos. It really doesn't matter to me. When I read
the books MY definition goes beyond the definition quoted above.
The Unknowable is what I read into it. This matches my system of understanding.
Dreaming is a curiosity for me. I have experienced some things of dreaming. I have experienced much more as a result of meditating. Both while meditating and
also while awake. And even some dreams that did not stop upon awakening.
Perspective - grandspeculator - 08-14-2008
You are a peach. I think a lot like you.
But the dreaming practices do have value. They are perhaps the only way of achieving a solid second attention and forging the energy body for seeing purposes.
Mystics outside the nagual tradition don't see the same things. The development of the second attention in nagual terms is unique.
The knowledge of the AP is only known, as far as I know, by two or three traditions: Nagual seers, peruvian shamans (I think) and the indian kaula tantrics
(the last two don't publicly discuss it).
As for the knowledge of the Godhead and God union, naguals knew squat. They were to much involved in their narrow subtle developments... even the so called new
seers. Naguals don't know what freedom is... they openly say so.
That's why I, and others, see the nagual teachings as valuable and powerful... yet incomplete as path.
Perspective - Guest - 08-14-2008
Grand...For your BS you should open your own board...if you don't have one already...you are starting to bore the **** out of me...again. Need a hearing aid by any chance?
Perspective - grandspeculator - 08-14-2008
PerSyd wrote:
Grand...For your BS you should open your own board...if you don't have one already...you are starting to bore the **** out of me...again.
I will never have a board... ever. I'll just share a little (I have tons of it) of my bullshit here, for now. Don't worry. I won't be around
forever.
Love ya too Persyd... your new found humility suits you well.
Perspective - Guest - 08-14-2008
Oh Grand you know that I know so don't lie your ass off...you should try humility...and no no no...don't even think about that... Anb I LOVE YOU too
Perspective - grandspeculator - 08-14-2008
Perspective - Guest - 08-14-2008
Don't you belive me? I told you I do...
Perspective - grandspeculator - 08-14-2008
I believe you... but I laugh of the thought of trying humility... that's a little to advanced for me.
Perspective - Guest - 08-14-2008
I know Grand...I love you anyway...
Perspective - dreamways - 08-14-2008
Here is another important quote I would like to add to what I was saying earlier:
"The nature of the Bodhisattva is apparent from a teaching story in which three people are walking through a desert. Parched and thirsty, they spy a
high wall ahead. They approach and circumnavigate it, but it has no entrance or doorway.
One climbs upon the shoulders of the others, looks inside, yells "Eureka" and jumps inside.
The second then climbs up and repeats the actions of the first.
The third laboriously climbs the wall without assistance and sees a lush garden inside the wall. It has cooling water, trees, fruit, etc. But, instead of
jumping into the garden, the third person jumps back out into the desert and seeks out desert wanderers to tell them about the garden and how to find it.
The third person is the Bodhisattva."
My question is, where is the Bodhisattva of the nagual's freedom? Where is the person who actually found that freedom and has come back to
show us the way? Don Juan didn't do that. Castaneda didn't do that. Nobody in their lineage did it. But they did do something, especially the old
sorcerers, they had a concrete goal and qualified teachers that are still available. Just something to think about.
Perspective - grandspeculator - 08-14-2008
The Death Defier, for one. Truth of the matter is that no one except him/er knows how high he is. If a nagual can be free... he/she is the Bodhisattva of
Nagual Freedom. He/She is, after all, the Mother/Father of the lineage of the new seers.
Perhaps it's not his/er fault that none could follow his/er footsteps.
There are others, but they are unknown.
Perspective - dreamways - 08-14-2008
Nagual LoneWolf wrote:
Interesting insight Dreamways. The question past the question is: What is the inorganic's agenda with mankind/naguals? The indians believed the nagual
would attained freedom through three ways. One, after death of body they would skip past the eagle by recapitulation. The second through dreaming: staying
pass the wall of fog into new territory. The third by a major shift of the ap.
As far as I can tell, the inorganic beings are only interested in helping a small part of the human population which are related to them in some way, they
don't seem to be concerned about the rest of humanity at all. Nagualism was created by the old sorcerers as a way to facilitate the repatriation of
sorcerers into the inorganic realm, using it to attain a hypothetical freedom is something new. I have found two types of "old sorcerers", one being
the classic death defier type which have discovered the secret of "merging" consciousness. Their end goal seems to be the merging of all of them
into one single super-energy-body. The other kind also use a type of merging technique, but it is confined to one sorcerer plus one inorganic being at a time.
Somebody mentioned a "hybrid" they had heard about in dreaming, this is probably what they are talking about. The hybrid sorcerers are all female
and the death defiers are all male. What sex they were when they started out is not clear to me yet. I've been "invited" to join both types, so
maybe your original sex doesn't matter. The male types seem to have an insect like energy and the female types have more of a tree type energy.
Perspective - grandspeculator - 08-14-2008
dreamways wrote:
Nagual LoneWolf wrote:
Interesting insight Dreamways. The question past the question is: What is the inorganic's agenda with mankind/naguals? The indians believed the nagual
would attained freedom through three ways. One, after death of body they would skip past the eagle by recapitulation. The second through dreaming: staying
pass the wall of fog into new territory. The third by a major shift of the ap.
As far as I can tell, the inorganic beings are only interested in helping a small part of the human population which are related to them in some way, they
don't seem to be concerned about the rest of humanity at all. Nagualism was created by the old sorcerers as a way to facilitate the repatriation of
sorcerers into the inorganic realm, using it to attain a hypothetical freedom is something new. I have found two types of "old sorcerers", one
being the classic death defier type which have discovered the secret of "merging" consciousness. Their end goal seems to be the merging of all of
them into one single super-energy-body. The other kind also use a type of merging technique, but it is confined to one sorcerer plus one inorganic being at a
time. Somebody mentioned a "hybrid" they had heard about in dreaming, this is probably what they are talking about. The hybrid sorcerers are all
female and the death defiers are all male. What sex they were when they started out is not clear to me yet. I've been "invited" to join both
types, so maybe your original sex doesn't matter. The male types seem to have an insect like energy and the female types have more of a tree type
energy.
Your posts never cease to amaze me.
Perspective - Hawkeye Crow - 08-15-2008
Oh! Three dogs on a flagpole!!
First: read "The Second Ring of Power" , or is it the "Eagles Gift". Anyhow , Warriors humbleness is explained . It is not slavery ,
it is self-respect . It is non-dualism. It is do unto others, up to a point. It is dispassion.
Doggone it , Bob May, your criticism of sorcery shows that you don't know what sorcery is. Sorcery is the manipulation of perception. The WHOLE world is
doing that very thing without any purpose other than self-reflection. ESPECIALLY Religions! Realize that ANY system can be used for good or bad. The whole
point of eliminating self-importance is so that practitioners follow 'the path with heart' , and use the knowledge for advancement , freedom and
defense.
Finally , for those who are aware of it , sorcery is an exploration of the left side. Or , the psychic side , if you care to call it that. "The little
voice" , or Merging with other Beings' . I've been doing these things for years without taking it seriously. Now about moving the AP so that you
affect the law of attraction? Doesn't anyone get it? Silence of mind: it's meditation practice , which , sadly , I have also not taken as seriously
as I should . Think! When you go to silence of mind , you clear space for inspiration. I know that even at my sorry level of practice. THINK! Surely
you've heard stories of writers and musicians who found their inspiration in that second sleep stage or even in dreaming itself.
Again and again I have said that Castaneda is not the issue. The issue is that his books are a gold mind of Wisdom and Ideas. It's your choice. Try it
and find out for yourself , as I have , if some of these ideas do or do not create events. Seven hawks came to me two weeks ago . SEVEN! 50 ft over my head.
A coincidence? Maybe. Maybe I was just in the right AP position , with no thought of results and they came with a blessing.
I got kicked off Sustained Rec because I talked about the Indians (Oglala) and their relation to the what is here called the Nagual. That Crazy Horse found
his battle tactics in dream seeing and was able to defeat Custer. Just like do Juan described it. A warriors last impeccable stand!
Look it up yourself. Ah , I 'm out of time. I could say so much more. Shift Focus. Turn a curse into a blessing Talk to a tree. Lose self-importance
and find a Warriors Humbleness.
Perspective - Guest - 08-15-2008
Listen to Hawkeye, Grand...there are some folks that care about you...one of the is me... I do forgive whatever I have to forgive...I love you Honestly I do
Perspective - grandspeculator - 08-15-2008
I try to be humble... but I can't. Someday... perhaps... I'll learn how to. You are a peach too PerSyd... at times.
Your love is appreciated. Let us hope that your love helps me in growing humble and loving... God knows I need it.
Perspective - Guest - 08-15-2008
Oh Grand...just be yourself for now...No one is asking more then you
can do...You can bet your ass I do Love you no matter what...
Perspective - dreamways - 08-15-2008
seeitall
wrote:
Juan said that the energy for that movement, for dreaming, comes from inorganic beings.
from inorganic beings or inorganic realm ?
Now, the modern sorcerers hypothesized that they could use this energy to attain freedom, to end up somewhere other than the inorganic realm.
How many inorganic realms are there ? The twin world, the closest realm to ours, which CC described
in AOD , what else ? Are all the other worlds "in the onion" inorganic ?
Inorganic energy emanates from inorganic beings, the realm itself does not create it. This is what the inorganic beings told me and it
coincides with my experience with them. Inorganic beings are like us in that they have two primary energy bodies, one that is used for dreaming (what we see
as a "scout") and one that is anchored in their realm, it being equivalent to out physical waking body. Their dreaming bodies emanate some inorganic
energy, but most is found where they live. As far as other inorganic realms, there are two kinds. The first is any world or "dream bubble" which
harbors inorganic scouts, these are the place that they are able to dream themselves too, and therefore have some influence there. The earth is one of those
places. The second kind of inorganic world is the type where a different type of inorganic being lives, different from what we normally encounter. The
dreaming bodies, or scouts, from these far off inorganic realms are very aggressive and are known to impersonate close relatives in your dreams. There are
many worlds/layers that are actually enjoyable for us, and they are only a bit more inorganic than earth.
Perspective - grandspeculator - 08-15-2008
**** Dreamways... your experience and knowledge of the dynamics of the inorganic realm, the old seers, dreaming, subtle realms and the AP alone could fill a
book... a good book!
But I dunno... indirectly inviting others to "play" with the inorganics could be counterproductive... perhaps even karmic for you.
But, as I said before, your knowledge in this matters is pure gold. Thanks a bunch.
Perspective - dreamways - 08-15-2008
Bob May wrote:
It is a trap. The entire world of sorcery is.
Well, that's what I would expect any judeo-christian facist to say. What I have experienced is that sorcerers are born, not made, they never had a choice
about the path that they were put upon at birth. But, that goes for everybody else too, even the conquistadors. Once a sorcerer sees what they are, they can
begin to see what options are actually available to them and which are not. There is no such thing as a universal religion or spirituality that is right for
everyone, it helps to understand that and not condemn other paths that are not right for you.
Perspective - dreamways - 08-15-2008
grandspeculator wrote:
Your posts never cease to amaze me.
And for my next trick, I will provide no alternative for sorcerers but to be what they are.
Perspective - dreamways - 08-15-2008
grandspeculator wrote:
That's why I, and others, see the nagual teachings as valuable and powerful... yet incomplete as path.
The path is actually complete in every way shape and form. The part that seems to be missing is the part that scares the **** out of people. I don't
think that the average bastard could traverse this road, it probably takes a total mother fucker to do it. Its a path for warriors not pussies.