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Being impeccable - Bob May - 05-27-2008
The test of observance of Christ's teachings is our consciousness of our failure to attain an ideal perfection. The degree to which we draw near this
perfection cannot be seen; all we can see is the extent of our deviation.
Leo Tolstoy
Any thoughts?
Being impeccable - Bob Carr - 05-27-2008
Hello , Bob
I was thinking that I would miss you if you did not post here occasionally.
Is there hope for Cartaneda Forum?
Anyway, and in all seriousness , Tolstoy is correct, at least applied to what is called the Tonal. But, I see impeccability as a journey rather than a goal.
That is, straining and effort are to no avail, Stalking is. And , stalking is a total questioning, a total examination of a thing, until understanding is
reached. This kind of study changes conciousness, and thus, behavior.
Now , I don't mean to say that one should not accept a teacher and learn methods. However, it is now clear to me that to stalk, one must yearn, truly love,
the profession one stalks. Otherwise, one just wastes energy on the road to death.
There is a post , somewhere else here, "Now that I have become what I sought, I don't know who I am. " , or something like that. The point is
that it is false to try to 'become' anything. It is envious to try to be other than what one is. It is curious how people will praise their God, yet
constantly condemn his creation. As if, for instance, Humans could 'manage' a forest. The forest is fine. What we manage is our meddling.
My point is that perfection is already here, if only we would stop blindly doing what we are told , what we think we have to do.
Though the inquiring mind is a wonderful thing, intellectualism, and thereby, most modern acculturalism , is a curse.
Yes! Question authority. Question everything before you believe anything! Examine those ones who were cast off with disdain.
Watch the animals-they spin but they do not toil-they are perfect, even if it does not please the human. To be silent in mind and scan ones
surroundings with no pre-concept is a moment of perfection.
To describe Power in words is not perfection. I know I have left out so much, using these words. Maybe to find the joy in merely being alive,
when one is able, is perfection. The words in the Castaneda narrative certainly inspired me to that love, through expanded understanding, of this astounding
thing we call life. And how would I know it without Stalking it?
Finally, for a human to say, spiritually,' this is, and no further!' is a grievious error. Wars are fought over that kind of thinking.
Acceptance of our mortality is enough. There is no certainty but death. (thank you, Juan Matus)
Being impeccable - Bob Carr - 05-27-2008
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Being impeccable - Bob Carr - 05-27-2008
mouse error
Being impeccable - Bob May - 05-28-2008
Hi Bob,
"Is there hope for Cartaneda Forum?"
The raven at the bottom of the page has not worked since yuku took over so I don't think many even know it exists or how to get there. The only way I go to
it is because it is stored in my favorites.
"Watch the animals-they spin but they do not toil-they are perfect, even if it does not please the human. To be silent in mind and scan ones surroundings
with no pre-concept is a moment of perfection."
"Consider the ravens who neither sow nor reap yet God provides for them."
This was a very radical statement at the time. It seems to go against the Old Testament Law but not really.
As you sow, so shall you reap has more to do with sowing spiritual thoughts and getting spiritual insights as opposed to having your mind always stuck on the
day to day grind of making a living etc. We can plant apples or lemons, it's really our choice.
The ravens and the spiders dance! No worries.
We human beings tend to stumble our way through life not learning the lessons the animals can teach us if we just "consider."
Being impeccable - Bob Carr - 05-28-2008
It seems that there is may be a consensus emerging here.
That is that , rather than being a follower, intelligence and creativity come from finding one's own expression.
This is not easy, and opposition from familly , friends and society can be intense.
Something like CC's Warriors Way is the only source of personal stability, when one may feel completly alone in a predatory world.
Being impeccable - Shaboy - 05-28-2008
For me, the interesting part is that we cannot see our proximity to perfection. only our deviation from it. It speaks of "original sin" and locks you
into the first proposition. (using one's acknowledgement of his deviation from perfection as a test of Christian Faith) You have to accept a theology
before you can deviate from it. I see a logical loop being expressed here, something that by definition cannot be legitimately questioned.
That mankind is intrinsically and fundamentally imperfect is just an idea, but it's part of the Western Culture philosophical bedrock. We buy these ideas
in bulk from our ancestors. They become such ubiquitously invisible ideas that I doubt any of us could name two other ideas on par with Original Sin, even
though we base our understanding of the world on such ideas.
The worst of it is that it is a beautiful sentiment that we should be mindful of our imperfection. We can be more accepting of public authority and easier to
deal with in general if we feel flawed. We have a vested interest in selling these ideas to our young, so we tell them how flawed they are in Bible stories and
every day life. I don't mean to indict Christianity as social control. I wish to point out how important social control is to society, and how social
control mechanisms permeate our subconsciousness in the form of religious icons and archetypes.
Being impeccable - seeitall - 05-28-2008
mankind is fundamentally screwed up.
you do not need to be perfect, but it would be nice to get into some "natural boundaries".
take for example physical body. there is nothing like "perfect body", but when you meet
someone who is 400 pound overweight, maybe you start thinking there is something wrong with this man.
same is with the spirit.
we deviated so much that our natural state looks like some mythical perfection.
Being impeccable - ARNWAY - 05-28-2008
Bob or someone can you provide a link to the site talked about since my computer crashed and lost all my book marks.
"Is there hope for Cartaneda Forum?"
The raven at the bottom of the page has not worked since yuku took over so I don't think many even know it exists or how to get there. The only way I go to
it is because it is stored in my favorites.
Being impeccable - seeitall - 05-28-2008
http://worldnagualforum.yuku.com/
Being impeccable - Bob May - 05-29-2008
I see seeitall already created a link so I just copied it annd put it into the Title also.
"For me, the interesting part is that we cannot see our proximity to perfection. only our deviation from it."
That also caught my eye and I belive it is true. How can we see how far away from perfection we are if we've never known perfection. But we see our
screw-ups just fine.
"You have to accept a theology before you can deviate from it."
Not necessarily. We all have standards whether we subscribe to the same religion or none at all. When we fall short of that we percieve ourselves to have
failed. Failed to meet the standards we have subscibed to.
"The worst of it is that it is a beautiful sentiment that we should be mindful of our imperfection. We can be more accepting of public authority and
easier to deal with in general if we feel flawed. We have a vested interest in selling these ideas to our young, so we tell them how flawed they are in Bible
stories and every day life."
The real problem with the West is not the book they are reading but that they are calling themselves Christians and teaching Old Covenant Law.
The difference between Christianity and "so called" Christians and their churches is that "so called" Christians take a standard of
perfection and water it down.
Christians believe in an absolute standard of perfection knowing they cannot ever hope to reach this standard. But they also believe in infinite Grace so that
it does not count against them when they fail.
Parents have a vested interest in their children behaving themselves, that's true. And useful and doesn't harm the child if done in the right way.
Preachers also have a vested interest in that their livelyhood and authority depend upon "controlling" their congregations. (and even their ideas,..I
like to call it the "thought police") They are doing harm because they take the curses of the Old Testament and use those as levers to control people
who were never under the Hebrew Laws in the first place.
I guess what I'm seeing is unattainable goals lead to failure and pathology if not tempered in some way.
Both hell-fire and being devoured by the Eagle are frightening prospects awaiting inevitable failure.
I'm curious.
How do some of you reconcile these?
Do you water down impeccability?
Do you give yourself a break when you fail?
Being impeccable - DoktorGreen - 05-29-2008
A sorcerer is impeccable because he "sees". For those that do not "see", this is a concept that one looks to the will to fulfill. As such,
it is nearly impossible. Consequently, one must first learn to "see". Then impeccability becomes an aspect of life that is a natural symptom of
one's perspective. "Seek ye first the Kingdom of Heaven." All else follows.
Being impeccable - Bob May - 05-29-2008
Hi Doktor Green,
Good to hear from you as always. And as always you cut straight to the heart of the matter.
What you write brings many things to think about. I will reply later so I can sort my thoughts out and let others come through.
Being impeccable - Bob Carr - 05-29-2008
If we are comparing ourselves to others or ideals, we are indulging in envy. At the same time, this envy leads to fear, and fear cause us to become arrogant
and elitist as we make comparisons, to bolster our self reflection/importance.
As I stalk myself, I can see a disdain for other human beings , the same as expressed by others here. This is difficult, for I can feel the positive as
expressed by don Juan. The solution, for me, is to conciously accept the predatory side of things without rationlizations, and stalk detachment ; to let
insults roll off my back and 'kick that **** right off my shoes '!
A good sense of humor helps , too. Keep it light. Religions get waay to heavy and self-important.
A talking dog walked into a bar. He said, ' Hello bartender, I'm a talking dog, how about a drink?' the bartender said, 'No problem, the
toilet's right back there.'
Being impeccable - Bob May - 05-29-2008
Doktor Green, you said,
"...one must first learn to "see". Then impeccability becomes an aspect of life that is a natural symptom of one's perspective. "Seek
ye first the Kingdom of Heaven." All else follows."
So awareness precedes impeccability or perfection. Jesus said in another place that a person must be "born from above" in order to "see" or
"enter" this kingdom. This seems to be a prerequisite. It also seems to imply a total change of perception also.
You also said,
"..this is a concept that one looks to the will to fulfill."
Bob Carr said,
"If we are comparing ourselves to others or ideals, we are indulging in envy. At the same time, this envy leads to fear, and fear cause us to become
arrogant and elitist as we make comparisons, to bolster our self reflection/importance.
As I stalk myself, I can see a disdain for other human beings , the same as expressed by others here."
Both of your statements I believe. And both point to a legalist mindset. If I overcome smoking or drinking or whatever and then look down on someone who has
not accomplished that, I am forgetting that I too had those problems and that I am lacking in some other way. In some other area of my life be it thought or
actions. No one is perfect or impeccable. We are all on equal footing so there should be no elitism (but there of course is),
We all start out our journey with discipline, or an act of will. Our shortcomings become more clear to us as we try to "follow the rules" whatever
these rules happen to be. So then we are left with the feeling that we are worse off than before we put our foot on the Path. Not really, we are just becoming
more aware. Of our shortcomings and weaknesses and of those around us.
Trying and failing enough will bring us to the "end of ourselves". Call it Grace, the Kingdom of Heaven, Seeing or the Second Attention.
Our Will, or discipline cannot bridge the abyss. Those are the tools of "this world."
It is not a paint by numbers world we live in, but the standards we set for ourselves or subscribe to can help to paint us into a corner, so to speak, where we
confront the need to let go. To come to the end of our resources.
Being impeccable - seeitall - 05-29-2008
do we have a definition what impeccable means or are we talking about different things ?
Does impeccable mean that you cannot do a mistake or fail ? Even angels have fallen if you believe in bible.
How it could be if they see ?
To see you need to lead an impeccable life. but Doc Green says you can be impeccable only if you see ?
I'm not sure if don Juan said this: "the only difference between warrior and a
common man is that warrior is never disappointed by his failure"
Getting past the eagle or heaven for eternity might
be worse than being devoured by the Eagle. As the zen master
would say "we'll see". Until I'm not there, I do not think it will
necessarily be better place to live than here.
Being impeccable - DoktorGreen - 05-29-2008
Seeitall,
"Impeccable", in my own translation, means to act with the awareness of the manifestations energetically apparent, so that one does not create
contradictions with one's decisions and actions,.... instead manifesting harmony and creativity for all life. When Juan Matus says that a seer is
impeccable, he is talking about a seer. Not an acolyte.
Everything is energy (power). When the walls between the social awareness and the higher awareness collapse, energy is apparent. Then the seer acts with true,
immediate knowledge.
Until those barriers erode and collapse, we live and act in a way to conserve and increase our energies.... to the best of our abilities. This, in time allows
one to remain cohesively perceptive when the daily world is shattered by the collapse of its limitations. Of course, this is coupled with dreaming practices,
recapitulation, and maybe psychotropic interventions.
There are many levels or frequencies of energy. Matus speaks of the fizzling energy of the inorganic realms and the shimmering waves of energy in this daily
world. When one assembles perception, one collects strands. The energy manifested is relative to those strand combinations. There is a pattern in all assembled
points. The energy exists in an "unassembled" mode until it is observed (assembled). Then, the process of assembling awareness results in a collapse
of the 'waves' (for example) and results in a change from 'waves' to 'particles'. As particles, the energy becomes solid and forms
emerge. If there are collectively created forms, these are the ones that become apparent. If not, then the seer can / does manifest his own Intent.
the same process holds true for every realm that contains a dualistic spectrum and the energy required to entertain each successive realm is higher. Humans
don't have that much energy available. They must find other sources, if they hope to consciously perceive another realm cohesively.
Being impeccable - Bob May - 05-29-2008
Hi seeitall.
"..do we have a definition what impeccable means or are we talking about different things ? "
My Webster's says "Having no flaws; perfect; not capable of sin. But whether or not Don Juan meant it this way or not, it still implies a standard
that we are striving to live up to. One in which we sometimes or often fall short of attaining.
"I'm not sure if don Juan said this: "the only difference between warrior and a
common man is that warrior is never disappointed by his failure""
Yes he said that or something very similar. If we fail at living up to a very high standard of thought and behavior, we have already blown it.
If we then get overly upset because we have blown it, then we have blown it twice. Kind of a "catch 22."
Which is my point. How do we handle the failure?
There is a third type of reaction also. This is the type of person who pretends that they don't fail while in the presence of others and maybe won't
even admit it to themselves. This is a brain-dead hyppocrite.
"Does impeccable mean that you cannot do a mistake or fail ? Even angels have fallen if you believe in bible.
How it could be if they see ? "
Angels don't see everything. They reside in another realm and so are aware of it even though we are not. But if they were able to experience what we do
they would not have fallen in the first place.They wanted to see what it was like to screw women and so are stuck here, (although invisible to us.) And for
that matter if they could see so well, they would have seen the big mistake they were making and not made it.
"To see you need to lead an impeccable life. but Doc Green says you can be impeccable only if you see ? "
Maybe you need to see to read between the lines. Jesus aparently broke the Hebrew Law many times while doing what is right. A matter of the spirit vs. the
letter of the law. Like I said, life is not a paint by numbers proposition. Too many gray areas.
"Getting past the eagle or heaven for eternity might
be worse than being devoured by the Eagle."
I doubt it. Then it wouldn't be heaven, would it?
Besides, the kingdom of heaven is not just some place you go when you die. It's here, now. More akin to "seeing" than going somewhere.
I guess my whole point here is that we need a "safety valve" of some sort when striving for perfection.
In Christianity it is called Grace.
In Don Juan's system the quote you mentioned above pretty much covers it.
Being impeccable - ARNWAY - 05-30-2008
I'll be honest I'm not impeccable as I would like to be but I have leaned to see while dreaming and while awake and when I see I know what it takes to
foster that perception and that is dusting the link or veil that separates us from this perception of the world and from what I can tell this is what Don Juan
was talking about being impeccable and whats hard to talk about is that the description of seeing is so abstract that I know what D.J. means as far as putting
words to it.
The art to seeing is to perceive without using your normal thoughts and I recommend if you can't do it normally then you must use hallucinogen substance
to help you attain this perception like what D.J. did to Carlos countless times because his rational mind was so strong.
Most people are afraid to do anything like hallucinogens because they are afraid to let go of the Foreign Installation that gives them comfort in their
thoughts and the fear that most people have is that they are not ready to let go of its fixation but believe me it is only temporary and your mind will come
back weather you like it or not.
When you have achieved this perception you don't have to rely on any substance just the knowledge of the intent of seeing the world in a different
perspective.
If you are a good dreamer its all the easier to see because you are already fluid with your attention.
I was going to respond more in the recent past but I had another virus on my computer and had to do another restore.
I just thought of some useful insights but do not have time to talk or post them because I have to be at work at 6:00am eastern time.
Being impeccable - Bob May - 05-30-2008
Hi Doktor Green and seeitall,
Our posts crossed it seems so I missed yours appearing while I was writing mine.
"When Juan Matus says that a seer is impeccable, he is talking about a seer. Not an acolyte."
I hadn't noticed that while reading Castaneda's books, but I'll take your word for it.
"Until those barriers erode and collapse, we live and act in a way to conserve and increase our energies.... to the best of our abilities. This, in time
allows one to remain cohesively perceptive when the daily world is shattered by the collapse of its limitations."
Then let's call it the warrior's way. It is still a set of guidlines, if not rules, of behavior and thought patterns that help us to conserve that
energy.
My teacher used to say that a mystic never uses his energy against himself. He had certain sayings that helped in that.
"Don't take life so serious, you can't get out of it alive anyway." Was one.
Don Juan also had one that has always stuck with me.
"No one is doing anything to anyone."
Being impeccable - Bob Carr - 05-30-2008
Bob I see that your original quote was for the purpose of creating just the discussion we are having. I understand Legalism. Do you know Process
Theology? Guidelines are only useful when one truly knows what he or she seeks from Power.
As to hallucinogens, I still believe the old ways. One needs a guide, the first time. If the guide does not come from a place of heart, the newcomer can be
led astray into , uh, unpleasant realms. I was lucky; my initiation was completely kind, and we had discussions about God and Infinity , insights I carry with
me today, from 40 years ago. My 'guide ' quit using about a year later, saying , essentially, that the social scene had changed, he had lost interest.
(our friends were turning to the harder stuff-I ended up using the needle occasionally , myself--I have a close relative with Hep3 from the same).
So, the vibe has changed. Times are uglier now, more violent. No need to look deeper into that. I too have finally lost interest, tho I continue to be
in favor of legalization, as repression solves nothing.
Being impeccable - Bob May - 05-30-2008
Hi Bob,
"Bob I see that your original quote was for the purpose of creating just the discussion we are having. I understand Legalism."
I started out my spiritual journey following Don Juan as a guide. Using all of his techniques and suggestions. I am not putting too fine a point on it when I
say Journey to Ixtlan was my Bible. I quit all "partying in the respect that I only took grass and mushrooms as a tool to open the door. And you are right
you don't know where you will end up without a guide. But you do end up somewhere other than you were if you take it that seriously and that far.
"Unpleasant" realms is a very mild way of describing that experience.
Later, I found a teacher. A Christian Mystic and healer and master of the Kundalini. I studied Qabala and meditation, the Mysteries in the Bible, etc. etc. I
also found that there are other realms beyond what I experienced during my stopping the world experience.
All of these experiences had one element in common. To one extent or another they were only possible because I had reached what I call "the end of
myself."
And this is my point and the reason for starting this post.
The importance of attempting to reach an unattainable goal.
NOT LEGALISM. Legalism is almost unavoidable in the attempt, I will grant you. So is Ego and self righteousness, etc., etc.
But, these can be corrected if we admit that it is OUR goal, not other's.
So let's take other people out of the picture completely for the sake of discussion and look at someone who has set their foot on the Path. A spirit
Journey of any kind.
To set an unattainable goal is to set yourself up for failure. Period. That is a goal that completely uses all of your Tonal. Every waking hour of every day is
lived for the purpose of acheiving something. Ordering your Tonal to acheive only that goal.
For Carlos the goal was "seeing."
In the Bible (Old Testament especially) it is righteousness (or right standing with God). Which also implies "seeing."
We, being human beings, surrounded by a cause and effect world, expect this Acheivement to come when we have fulfilled the requirements involved in our school
of thought.
But the Spirit, not being of the same cause and effect world has a different approach.
The moment we realize that our goal cannot be acheived and really admit it in our hearts, our Tonal, which has been rearranged to meet this one goal,
collapses. Then we Realize something.
Our goal was never attainable by our efforts at all. Our goal was never an Acheivement. It is a Realization!!!!
A realization that we were blocked from having by our Tonal or world view.
This is my point. The importance of having an un attainable goal and our reaction to it or how do we deal with it when we fail.
Do we pretend we are keeping it?
Do we water it down in order to make it easier?
Do we need an unattainable goal in the first place, or is it just another method of opening our awareness?
Being impeccable - seeitall - 05-30-2008
I do not find having a goals a good idea, especially when you cling to them.
it's like giving the flyer a weapon of mass destruction against you.
I imagine impeccability is like walking on the blade. it's not something
that you achieve and then you have it. it's more like a constant struggle to
keep the balance.
Being impeccable - ARNWAY - 05-30-2008
Good point Bob about attaining goals that are really hard to achieve.
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All of these experiences had one element in common. To one extent or another they were only possible because I had reached what I call "the end of
myself."
And this is my point and the reason for starting this post.
The importance of attempting to reach an unattainable goal.
NOT LEGALISM. Legalism is almost unavoidable in the attempt, I will grant you. So is Ego and self righteousness, etc., etc.
But, these can be corrected if we admit that it is OUR goal, not other's.
So let's take other people out of the picture completely for the sake of discussion and look at someone who has set their foot on the Path. A spirit
Journey of any kind.
To set an unattainable goal is to set yourself up for failure. Period. That is a goal that completely uses all of your Tonal. Every waking hour of every day is
lived for the purpose of acheiving something. Ordering your Tonal to achieve only that goal.
For Carlos the goal was "seeing."
In the Bible (Old Testament especially) it is righteousness (or right standing with God). Which also implies "seeing."
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I think that the element of self importance has an element with this.
To defend things or obstacles that one can not attain, maybe?
For me to not to cling to my reason is easy for me but not for others.
Being impeccable - Bob Carr - 06-01-2008
By 'unpleasant' I meant more than a freak-out. I meant asociation with people and places one should not be with, and , a distorted , lifelong
perception.
As to goals, Seeitall mentioned that its's like a Knifes edge in that on such a journey we may indulge in our failures. I was about to say that to avoid
this is difficult, but I see that the real indulgence is to dwell and worry long after a failure or problem is over.
Moreover, I think I am finished with prayer as a solution and am more aware of getting my mind and emotions to a place of silence and so that
new possibilities can arise when in difficulties.
The Warriors Way? Just keep on keepin' on , forget-more Shakespeare-the slings and arrows of outrageous fortune.
Our future may require even more critical thinking. The world of humanity is on track to disaster. I'd say it's 50/50 as to whether the course is
changed. The biggest threat will come from the USA and how its people react to what they percieve, and therefore the greatest hope for positive action.
Who knows the mind of Power?