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New Seers and Old Seers - lex icon - 01-21-2011
Some of my favorite pieces of all of Castaneda’s writings are regarding the truths about awareness, especially chapter 3 of Fire From Within; The Eagles Emanations. I find these truths very revealing. The reason, I believe, that these truths and their meaning is not readily apparent is because they were not understood by Castaneda at the time of writing. And it seems to me that these truths are still not being accessed by Castaneda devotees, at least from what I read on Sorcery forums. So I thought that I would try again to shed some light upon the matter. I will bring to light some of the contradictions these truths pose for warriors and the meaning hidden from such warriors. For anyone who has seen the eagle’s emanations themselves they will understand that this is just what we do.
What better time than now to do this because of the name change to “New Seers”. First we need to outline a few lines of demarcation taken from Fire From Within. As we see DJ never tired of telling CC about the differences between the old sorcerers and the new seers, a tradition that seems to have fell by the way side for the most part. So lets take a closer look.
Most of the truths about awareness were discovered by the old seers, but the order in which they were arranged was worked out by the new seers and without that order the truths were nearly incomprehensible. FFW
So the old sorcerers discovered these truths but according to DJ they did not understand what they had discovered. So today also, if one is not engaged with the order and arrangement of these truths, then it is a pretty sure bet that one is as susceptible to the glamor of this magical universe as were the old seers. This universe appears so vast and its content ever expanding and self replicating, fabrication building upon elaboration, building upon fabrication, is it any wonder that awareness gets trapped in these layers and layers of onion.
Castaneda did much to introduce us to a world of sorcery steeped in the discoveries of the old seers. But Castaneda was very beguiled by the discoveries of the old seers, as it is with many of us today who follow in Castaneda’s footsteps. We think that because we have been able to accept some of the stupendous and outrageous possibilities presented to us by Castaneda and his cohorts that this sets us apart from those who cannot accept such possibilities. Then we further conclude that our seeing is superior to theirs. That those who do not see this range of possibilities are blind and still stuck in a social construct (which they are) and we measure ourselves against them only to confirm our seeing. No pity, heightened awareness, dreaming, stalking, 1st attention, 2nd attention, etc. yes we have seen all that, BUT SO DID THE OLD SEERS and it did not help them!
Those ancient seers had been masters of conjecture. They had, for one thing, assumed that their proficiency in seeing was a safeguard. They thought they were untouchable, that is until the invaders smashed them, and put most of them to horrendous deaths. FFW
So how is a warrior to proceed in light of the manifold dangers outlined by DJ? First we must take a look at what sets the new seers apart from the old seers and why.
The new seers did not waste time in speculating about what went wrong (with the old seers). Instead, they began to map the unknown in order to separate it from the unknowable. FFW
If I was to ask warriors reading this now, who is attempting to do just this, how many would raise their hand? Yet this was the first order of the day for new seers! This is the turning point for the new cycle! Without being engaged in this it is impossible to consciously be a part of the new cycle or to consider oneself a new seer! Without the new cycle the glamor of the the truths discovered by the old seers and the complexities of procedures regarding them will be too distracting resulting in utter (although exciting) confusion.
“What happened after the distinction between the unknown and the unknowable was realized?” I asked.
“The new cycle began,” replied Don Juan. “That distinction is the frontier between the old and the new. Everything the new seers have done stems from understanding that distinction.”
He said that not to seek order (of the truths concerning awareness) was one of the great mistakes that the ancient seers made. A deadly consequence of that mistake was their assumption that the unknown and the unknowable are the same thing! It was up to the new seers to correct that error. FFW
So when we neglect this sequential arrangement of the truths of awareness then the distinction between the unknown and the unknowable remains veiled.
“Seers have to be methodical, rational beings, paragons of sobriety, ” FFW
Oh no who wants that? The image of erudite, grey, haired professors peering over spectacles comes to mind. I am often accused of being intellectual. My sobriety is often confused with being overly intellectual or just too rational. But when faced those drunk on the conclusions based upon the “monumental edifices of abstraction” they have built, I can see how I would be a fly in their ointment.
He reiterated that my concentration had to be total, that to understand was of crucial importance, that the new seers placed the highest value on deep, unemotional realizations.
Don Juan explained that the new seers had had formidable barriers of tradition to overcome FFW
It is no different for warriors today, especially in Castaneda circles.
Lex
New Seers and Old Seers - ninth octave - 01-22-2011
A methodical thinker, observer, writer you certainly are. Erudite~~I have to look that word up. Grey as in using your grey matter between your ears. "My sobriety is often confused with being overly intellectual or just too rational"...but how do you appear if you're ever drunk? Let's talk about being stuck..." drunk on conclusions based upon the" monumental edifices of abstractions " they have built, I can see how I would be a fly in their ointment" rollin.
Why are we a mystery to everyone except ourselves and God? I know I have access into the Holy of Holies only I am fearful to enter past the veil. The unknown now made available. What is supposed to happen to the one who sees the eagles enamations and tells its tale. If I entered into the Holy of Holies I would want it to secret knowledge. What happens to the one who sees the eagles enamations?
"He reiterated that my concentration had to be total, that to understand was of crucial importance, that the new seers placed the highest value on deep, unemotional realizations."
We warriors will walk over the subtle lines of the unknown and the unknowable like bored fucks. I'd rather walk away from the unknown
looking like a bored ***.
New Seers and Old Seers - Bob May - 01-23-2011
Good subject matter Lex and good post Ninth,
I have written on these subjects years ago on this forum. I have seen the Great Emanations and been enveloped by them. In the bible they are known as Jacob's Ladder and Joseph's Coat of Many Colors. The disciples in the upper room at Pentecost experienced this Vision/Spiritual Experience also and this experience was promised to Nathanael in the first chapter of the Gospel of John.
The Holy of Holies has been opened to believers for 2000 years now because the veil was rent ("..from top to bottom.."meaning it was God's doing, not man's doing) When Jesus died on the cross saying "It is Finished."
What was "finished" was the Old Covenant of works. Now came the time of the New.
Under the Old the Holy of Holies was closed to the people. Only the High Priest could enter and then only once every year at Atonement. At that time he cleansed himself ritually and entered and spoke the name of God only once.
This demarcation between the unknown and unknowable is well established in both the Qabala and the bible. In the Qabala there is an Emanation called the Hidden Sephirah of Daath, or Knowledge. (note the similarity of terms here with the "Great Emanations")
This Sephirah sits across Abyss. Above this are the three Supernal Sephiroth. They can be experienced but not comprehended.
The Path of Grace taught by Jesus and the way of the Middle Pillar are parallels to what the New Seers were shooting for, I think.
Jesus said that any coming through a back door were thieves and robbers. Those would fit with both the Old Seers and those who think they are justfied by the Old Covenant Laws.
Good subject matter and hard to be understood.
Those are the Mysteries. They can be experienced but not always explained. But they are available to those who seek them.
Bob
New Seers and Old Seers - Nagual LoneWolf - 01-23-2011
Nice article Lex. Very good points. I do believe I have done some mapping and seen others here over the years which also related their arrangements. Two such dreamers here named Mothdream and Dreamlyn has done some amazing mapping through their dreaming. We must learn to take the knowledge and put it in the proper course for warrior advancement for if we do not, who will?
New Seers and Old Seers - Wei Shan Yang - 01-24-2011
Yes, I like this...thanks Lex.
What I feel the unknowable tells us New Seers is that a definition about life, mystery, creation, ultimately is impossible. I stress the word ultimately...so that leaves New Seers with much to define and explore contextually given they understand ultimately they'll be faced with a mystery never to be fully overcome. We as fearless explorers/travelers unlock doors to treasures of hidden knowledge, but never find "THE answer".
Yet to not explore at all for this reason is not an option, as what purpose is there in disdaining life? Life is meant to be lived, experienced! And acknowledgment is what is required of pragmatism so as to not be carried into the belief one knows with any finality what we call God or Spirit. We can experience it, ride its wave for sure!, but never fully know its secret. I ride upon Sorcery tales and Intent. LW mentions dreaming...there is so much to explore in dreaming, many warriors on most of these forums haven't even started. A common thought is its a second attention trap...but its only the case for the old seers who did not embrace the unknowable as a teacher and informant to define for them limits and enable them to organize their path free of ego-pride, sense of invincibility. We are probes for Infinity, and if we take our humble place in the design, more will be revealed to us. The old seers sought to become God, that was their mistake. God is ultimately unknowable, undefinable. All that is defined by fragmentation is S/He, yet its only contextual and the journey that never ends for seekers. So the idea is to travel upon one's individual awareness for as long as is possible. That's a humble statement acknowledging one is not Infinite. Individual awareness is not Infinite. Remember DJ telling Carlos that the New Seers found an open path to explore Infinity for a very long time, but by no means should they consider themselves immortal?
New Seers and Old Seers - ninth octave - 01-26-2011
The Unknown >>>>>>>?
New Seers and Old Seers - lex icon - 01-26-2011
He (DJ) said that seers maintain, naturally, that awareness always comes from outside ourselves, that the real mystery is not inside us. Since by nature the “emanations” at large are made to fixate what is inside the cocoon, the trick of awareness is to let the fixating emanations merge with what is inside us. Seers believe that if we let that happen we become what we really are .....fluid, forever in motion, eternal. (Immortal????) FFW.
Those ancient seers had been masters of conjecture. FFW
conjecture |kənˈjek ch ər
noun
an opinion or conclusion formed on the basis of incomplete information
Conjecture
A conjecture is a proposition that is unproven but appears correct and has not been disproven.
Most of us are addicted to conjecture and I mean that in the severest sense of the word. We are compelled to do this. DJ put it this way.
“Our senses perceive the way they do because a specific feature of our awareness FORCES them to do so.” FFW.
There is no freedom in this! If we do not come to terms with what this means there is no hope of liberty.
DJ told CC that the eagle and emanations are not visual and that in fact there are no such things.
“The problem arises with man’s awareness. (Buddhism is far more informative when speaking of awareness in this respect here); It is his awareness that becomes entangled and confused. At the crucial moment when it should be a simple case of the emanations acknowledging themselves, man’s awareness is compelled to interpret. The result is a vision of the eagle and the eagles emanations. But there is no eagle and no eagle’s emanations. What is out there is something that no living creature can grasp!” FFW
So when faced with the unknowable we are compelled to grasp and interpret the unknowable in ever increasing complex ways....God, Supernal Sephiroth, in fact the Qabala tree of life is a great example of a “monumental edifice of abstraction”. But we need not go so far as divine mystery. The unknowable is more immediate than that and much “closer to home” and everyone without exception sees it.
Elsewhere in the Zen Magnetic forum I have been addressing in more detail this compulsion mentioned here, this craving. My words did not find much traction in that forum, probably because on a website devoted to nagualism people are not that interested in “Zen Buddhism” or they simply do not see the connection. But when it comes to the first truth about awareness Don Juan and Buddhism are speaking about the same thing. But if we are distracted with all the content of awareness (eagles emanations dreaming stalking first attention second attention etc) then awareness itself goes unnoticed. That they are speaking about the same thing is very difficult to see at first especially if one has not made any progress with the world of objects that appear to surround us.
“The first truth, (about awareness) he said, was that our familiarity with the world we perceive compels us to believe that we are surrounded by objects, existing by themselves and as themselves, just as we perceive them, whereas, in fact, there is no world of objects, but a universe of eagles emanations.” FFW
Now before those familiar with DJ’s words here start nodding in agreement and imagining that the world must then be a energetic conglomeration of filaments I ask you to just remember for a moment DJ said there were no such energetic filaments either in fact there is nothing visual about these kinds of realizations at all.
Just the other day I was on Skype with a friend and we were discussing this world of objects. I had a pen and held it up to the monitor. This object we call it a pen, we name it, we know what it does and how to use it, its made of plastic and some metal and holds ink. We have this capacity of consciousness to isolate one aspect of consciousness while viewing it with another isolated aspect. We do all this naming and isolating and are able to communicate with each other and agree and then we make the crucial error, we think we know what the object actually is! But I say to you, that object is inconceivable. It is unknowable. It never actually comes into being, ever! All attempts to know such objects as isolated phenomena with inherent being is born of compulsion and grasping. It is conceptual fantasy.
So when it comes to mapping, making the unknown......known, discovering other beings and ways of being and realms and formless, sorcery techniques that it is all fine but in the end awareness is what we are dealing with. And for those new seers following in the footsteps of Don Juan the first truth concerning awareness is regarding objects. To become proficient in all that sorcery stuff means nothing if our compulsion and grasping regarding objects does not spontaneously release. Without such spontaneous and effortless release the sense of solidity and independence of objects will bar our way to third attention and overwhelm us, obscuring the vast spaciousness of reality.
A life of compulsion is not freedom!
New Seers and Old Seers - Wei Shan Yang - 01-26-2011
Lex, you just outlined in words (that which I felt but didn't put into words yet) the value about combining Buddhism with nagualism! How its about not grasping at conclusions (ultimately) and how the empty Buddhist view can prepare a path for the nagual warrior to tread free of heavy morose seeking that was the old seers way of concreteness. So as I see it, there is an affinity between these two, and I'm glad to have explored both and now nagualism has taken precedence again...the sorcery we travel upon, and the buddhist experiences also invisibly guide the way, informing about what the knowable is...even though we can't actually 'know it', we can understand this, feel it even. It keeps us free from any attachment, even as we dream, intend, create a path and then tread that path. With all our hearts.
New Seers and Old Seers - ninth octave - 01-26-2011
Why does it seem warriors are either on a horizontal or a vertical hold ? Which is still the same view depending where your positioning is from. How can new seers see by hearing?
I see the connection in everything to the point where there is nothing really new under this sun. Which leads me to believe there is something better than fiction or man-made traditions. The mystery for me is "how and why" people come to that ( their ) conjecture. It doesn't matter what I might really know. The peoples are still the mystery. I wonder what we all look like as spacial beings. Something that Jesus, physics, CC, NJ, Lex, and many more who try to teach and guide us towards what is a fraction away from us.
New Seers and Old Seers - Bob May - 01-26-2011
Hi Lex,
"So when faced with the unknowable we are compelled to grasp and interpret the unknowable in ever increasing complex ways....God, Supernal Sephiroth, in fact the Qabala tree of life is a great example of a “monumental edifice of abstraction”. But we need not go so far as divine mystery. The unknowable is more immediate than that and much “closer to home” and everyone without exception sees it."
Divine Mystery is as close as the air we breathe. As Thomas was told in the Gospel of Thomas, "The Kingdom of heaven is all around us yet men do not see it.
To enter into the Mysteries is to have had some first hand knowledge or experience that Mankind as a whole has not.
You are correct, we have a deep inherent abilty and drive to interpret and catagorize. It is not only visual but also verbal,.. Adam named the animals and "whatever name he gave them that was the name thereof." Which is why Stopping the Internal Dialog is of utmost importance.
Don Juan told Carlos that to "stop the world", and thereby enter into another description of the world, was his first goal. He said the danger of entering into another description of the world (the sorcerer's description) was in not realizing that that too was an illusion. The trick was, he said to sneak between the worlds.
In my opinion, he thought that if Carlos could see that there were more than one interpretation of reality that they were both overlays, patterns that we as human beings put on the one reality.
In the Bible, Creation and later manifestation began with the one light. Not light as we know it but Living, conscious energy. It is caught up in patterns. That is the value of the Qabala and the allegories in the bible. The stories are symbolic. The patterns inherent within those stories become more important than the stories themselves. It becomes apparent that those patterns are the patterns that our minds follow on the way to realizing that one light.
My teacher used to say don't try and figure things out, concerning certain spiritual experiences. Just observe.
Good subject matter for discussion.
New Seers and Old Seers - lex icon - 01-26-2011
But we need not go so far as divine mystery. The unknowable is more immediate than that and much “closer” to home and everyone without exception sees it." Lex
Divine Mystery is as close as the air we breathe. As Thomas was told in the Gospel of Thomas, "The Kingdom of heaven is all around us yet men do not see it. Bob May
Divine mysteries are as close if not closer than the air we breath. But as you said, or as Thomas said, “The Kingdom of heaven is all around us yet men do not see it.” But the “distance” I implied, (by my use of the word “closer”) is the level of spiritual experience and interpretation in light of that experience. Without spiritual awakening of some kind this Kingdom of Heaven is not seen. The term Kingdom of Heaven is itself a level of interpretation.
To enter into the Mysteries is to have had some first hand knowledge or experience that Mankind as a whole has not. Bob May
It is precisely this kind of talk that leads “spiritual” people to think they are superior to the “unenlightened”. To heap up mystical, metaphysical knowledge upon what already appears obscured and interpret experience in light of such knowledge has only minor benefit and lots of pitfalls.
What I speak of, every object “out there” is emptiness. Form is emptiness, emptiness is form. So everyone is seeing this, but there is this insistence of interpreting what is seen in ways that try to confirm (or even deny) the individual and inherent existence of these objects, in an attempt to establish them as not emptiness! (Craving) Why do we do this? That is not an idle question! Because of ignorance we insist that form is not emptiness. We insist that the objects we see are “real” in a particular way. Then we get “spiritual” about it and then insist that the opposite of form is formless and it is the formless that is emptiness, not form. But really all we have to do is to look at this world of form more closely and be more attentive. Form is emptiness. So what is emptiness? FORM. lol. If we can get a handle on this we will be in a better position to corroborate what Don Juan is talking about. Understanding the craving will help us see it as it happens. If we can simply refrain from exaggeration and catch ourselves as we go to talk about something we actually do not know (and then call it faith for example). If we can resist this spiritual embellishment and just stick to this world of objects we would have a better chance of cutting through the levels of interpretation and see directly, with primordial starkness.
Now in Don Juan’s language he said, “Something out there is effecting our senses. This is the part that’s real. The unreal part is what our senses tell us is there.” FFW
He was referring to the Eagle and the eagle’s emanations. But those terms will do more to confuse us than illuminate us. You see this is what we really have to get a hold of when reading DJ’s words when quoted in a book by CC. I remember when I first read about all this in CC’s works. I was diligently trying to piece together DJs world view, as was CC! All this business of energetic cocoons filled with filaments of energy and the universe at large also filled with the same filaments of energy and an assemblage point arranging universes of awareness depending on its position aligning elements within with whats out there etc. This is all very visual. And it does not help when on one page CC writes,
“Are the emanations like beams of light?” I asked.
“No. Not at all. That would be too simple. They are something indescribable. And yet, my personal comment would be to say that they are like filaments of light.” FFW
Which leaves us wondering what would filaments of light look like. They might not actually BE filaments of light but they look like them. So let me see these “things” that look like filaments of light and I will figure it out from there, right?
Then CC writes,
“Everybody falls prey to the mistake that seeing is done with the eyes. But don’t be surprised that after so many years you haven’t realized yet that seeing is not a matter of the eyes. Its quite normal to make that mistake.” FFW
Yes Bob it is good to observe but we must observe very closely.
New Seers and Old Seers - Jessicar.parallelperception - 01-27-2011
A portion of the experience with new and old is, for me, best described in words as Lex has done here and as has everyone who's responded to him. But, I know that words cannot grasp that difference at the core of it; they are a tool we use from a handful of tools that we've become comfortable in using--those tools being words, visuals, experience itself, and, largely, systems--of which the former tools are all comprised. In the past, I've been intrigued by the level of complexity that systems entail and eventually terrified by the trap the whole idea of a system becomes. Forget the flyers and the FI--we have enough to deal with in trying to extricate ourselves from explanation and intricacies and definition! (Said tongue in cheek---for those who might be appalled that I take those entities so lightly but maybe they also drive home my point!) The detail, the innuendo, the "splitting of hairs" that occurs when a system is used to explain awareness and perception becomes endemic to our understanding of it. Lex's grasp of Zen Buddhism and Bob May's grasp of the Biblical narrative are fine examples of the use of a system to grapple with the new and the old although having said that I ask at the same time, do you feel the need at times to extricate yourselves from even those systems or are they examples of the best we have in "making sense" of the mystery?
New Seers and Old Seers - Bob May - 01-27-2011
Hi Lex,
""Then we get “spiritual” about it and then insist that the opposite of form is formless and it is the formless that is emptiness, not form. But really all we have to do is to look at this world of form more closely and be more attentive.""
And again, I would say that silence is the key here. Don Juan said that stopping the internal dialog was the most important thing he taught Carlos. Jesus said "if these should hold their peace the very rocks would cry out." Stopping the internal dialog is not a matter of just curtailing words. It is a suspension of judgement. I think this certain type of judgement (I think it may be the craving your speaking of) is what makes us see and understand the world in the way that we do.
As far as the word spiritual goes we all put our own interpretation on that. Also faith and many other terms. Some take those terms as spooky. I look at the bible as a very technical book.
""It is precisely this kind of talk that leads “spiritual” people to think they are superior to the “unenlightened”. To heap up mystical, metaphysical knowledge upon what already appears obscured and interpret experience in light of such knowledge has only minor benefit and lots of pitfalls.""
My point is that what the term "mystery" means is something that most people have not experienced. Another term that has been twisted to mean something it was not intended to mean. That is the subject matter that both Jesus and Don Juan cover. That is the reason we study what we do. Nothing superior about it. It is preference or "predilection", I think Don Juan called it.
""If we can get a handle on this we will be in a better position to corroborate what Don Juan is talking about. Understanding the craving will help us see it as it happens. If we can simply refrain from exaggeration and catch ourselves as we go to talk about something we actually do not know (and then call it faith for example). If we can resist this spiritual embellishment and just stick to this world of objects we would have a better chance of cutting through the levels of interpretation and see directly, with primordial starkness.""
Faith is nothing more than believing. If I tell you it is 11:39 PM in Illinois as I am writing this, there is nothing spooky about it and you have no reason to doubt what I am saying. If it is in the bible, for some reason it gets misinterpreted.
Spiritual does not necesarily mean formless, it depends on the context. Dreams and visions can be spiritual experiences but have form. Angels which are spirits can manifest in matter as flesh and blood men.
When I use the terms together, "spiritual experience" it is to denote having had direct experience with something beyond the five senses.
Ro 1:19
Because that which may be known of God is manifest in them; for God hath showed it unto them.
Ro 1:20
For the invisible things of him from the creation of the world are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made, even his eternal power and Godhead; so that they are without excuse:
Now if I believe the bible verse above (in red) I would have to have the same faith in what you said above (in red). It's all very technical. Not spooky, not embelished.
"" To heap up mystical, metaphysical knowledge upon what already appears obscured and interpret experience in light of such knowledge has only minor benefit and lots of pitfalls.""
I am not trying to confuse things. Just showing parallels to different systems of knowledge. I have always done that on this forum, though I have not been active here for some time. I am not trying to show you up or shout you down. Just adding my two cents.
If I offended you It was not my intent. If I interupted the flow of what was going to be more of an essay than a discussion, please let me know and I will not post again on this particular thread. It's not a problem either way.
New Seers and Old Seers - ninth octave - 01-27-2011
When seers see, something explains everything as the new alignment takes place. IT'S A VOICE THAT TELLS THEM IN THEIR EAR WHAT'S WHAT...
THE VOICE OF SEEING ( another good name for this forum) IS A MOST MYSTERIOUS INEXPLICABLE THING.....
THE VOICE OF SEEING for the NEW SEERS is something quite INCOMPREHENSIBLE; they say it's the glow of awareness playing on the INDESCRIBABLE FORCE'S EMANATIONS as a harpist plays on a harp.
If we took away ALL descriptions , all adjectives , and all their exaggerations and are left with the analogy of a harp and the still small voice in the ear, how does one proceed?
New Seers and Old Seers - lex icon - 01-27-2011
I am not trying to confuse things. Just showing parallels to
different systems of knowledge. I have always done that on this forum,
though I have not been active here for some time. I am not trying to
show you up or shout you down. Just adding my two cents.
If I
offended you It was not my intent. If I interupted the flow of what was
going to be more of an essay than a discussion, please let me know and I
will not post again on this particular thread. It's not a problem
either way. Bob May
Bob,
I welcome your two cents and raise you $10. I realize you are not trying to shut me down or show me up. I am not offended and I know that it was never your intent to try and do so. So please stay and play!
I am very aware of spiritual traditions especially faith based and Biblical. (Jewish, Christian, Muslim) I come from a Christian mystic back ground, Carmelite tradition. Where you are seeing parallels I am not. Each of the those big 3 faith have strong mystical traditions and roots as I am sure you are aware. But this is what I found. Every mystical faith based tradition I have come across in the last 30 years that I can see only goes so far. The mystic goal of these faith based traditions is mystical union and anyone who devotes themselves in this direction will achieve the graces and the gifts promised. I have corroborated this myself. But that is where they end at least in writing (for the most part). They are mysteriously silent about what comes after this.
Don Juan, and Buddhism seem to be exploring what comes next beyond 2nd and 3rd Jhana. They are unraveling existence itself. But in order to get into the flow of this thrust one must, as Don Juan points out, understand this world of objects, which he calls the first truth of awareness. This is that camels gate, the proverbial eye of the needle. If this first truth is mishandled and one gains entry into this world presented by DJ, then one has missed a significant opportunity, and will be glamored by the dazzling array of the contents of awareness just like the old seers.
New Seers and Old Seers - lex icon - 01-27-2011
Forget the flyers and the FI--we have enough to deal with in trying to
extricate ourselves from explanation and intricacies and definition! Jessicar
Yes well said! Far more formidalble.
New Seers and Old Seers - Bob May - 01-27-2011
ninth octave wrote:
Hi Lex, Jessica and Ninth
""When seers see, something explains everything as the new alignment takes place. IT'S A VOICE THAT TELLS THEM IN THEIR EAR WHAT'S WHAT...
THE VOICE OF SEEING ( another good name for this forum) IS A MOST MYSTERIOUS INEXPLICABLE THING.....
THE VOICE OF SEEING for the NEW SEERS is something quite INCOMPREHENSIBLE; they say it's the glow of awareness playing on the INDESCRIBABLE FORCE'S EMANATIONS as a harpist plays on a harp.
If we took away ALL descriptions , all adjectives , and all their exaggerations and are left with the analogy of a harp and the still small voice in the ear, how does one proceed?""
I was thinking about playing musical instruments as a good example of what we see in Lex's subject as I understand it:
Lex said:
""We do all this naming and isolating and are able to communicate with each other and agree and then we make the crucial error, we think we know what the object actually is! But I say to you, that object is inconceivable. It is unknowable. It never actually comes into being, ever! All attempts to know such objects as isolated phenomena with inherent being is born of compulsion and grasping. It is conceptual fantasy.
So when it comes to mapping, making the unknown......known, discovering other beings and ways of being and realms and formless, sorcery techniques that it is all fine but in the end awareness is what we are dealing with.""
We are told by many masters of awareness that the things we see around us are not solid. Some have demonstrated this in various ways. But this "compulsion to believe" that things are real is ingrained deeply in our subconscious mind and is necessary in order to function here within this world of "matter."
I think a good way of approaching this is to learn to recognise how this particular compulsion of the subconscious mind is actually at work within us. And then learn to suspend this compulsive process that is at work within us.
If this compulsion is strengthened by the internal dialog, which I believe is true, then we must first learn to turn it off.
Then we begin questioning it or taking power from it. We do this trying, in spite of ourselves (our subconscious selves) to begin to see things differently.
We can do this by ever increasing methods of "not doing." Seeing the spaces between the leaves instead of the leaves, walking for miles with eyes crossed, loving our enemies, considering the ravens who neither sow nor reap yet God provides for them etc.
Artists, because of their particular gifts, become very good at seeing things differently. But as Lex pointed out it is not just a visual phenomena we are discussing here.
Don Juan said that we can only think one thought at a time. I believe this. Yet we can, with practice, apparently assign portions of complex tasks to the subconscious realm when we are required to do so. Learning to drive a stick shift comes to mind. Typing is another one.
Another good example is playing multi-part musical pieces on stringed instruments. Harp, piano and guitar for example. Each finger has a different task to do at a different time.
So if we can assign tasks to the care of the subconscious mind by rote or practice, we should be able to, by observation and practice, learn to recognise that process at work within ourselves. Watch how we actually turn it on and off. And then we should be more able to suspend it for a period of time, when we wish to.
For several years, I worked as a concert pedal harp repairman and on hot days we would open the doors of the shop. The breeze coming in through the doors would actually cause the strings to vibrate. A very beautiful sound could be heard if the harps that were strung were tuned up.
New Seers and Old Seers - ninth octave - 01-28-2011
"I think a good way of approaching this is to learn to recognise how this particular compulsion of the subconscious mind is actually at work within us as and then learn to suspend this compulsive process that is at work within us." Bob May
"Which leaves us wondering what would filaments of light look like. They might not actually BE filaments of light but they look like them. So let me see these "things"that look like filaments of light and I will figure it out from there, right?" Lex
"If the concreteness of reality is but a holographic illusion, it would no longer be true to say the brain produces consciousness. Rather, it is consciousness that creates the appearance of the brain--as well as the body and everything else around us we interpret as physical."
Keith Floyd
And if the brain IS a hologram than that means everything is a hologram?
New Seers and Old Seers - Bob May - 01-28-2011
The difference between "holograms" and "illusions" is the same as the difference between "reaffirmations from the world" around us and what most people call "coincidence."
The first implies an intelligent maker or someone sending a message. The second, an accidental play of light or circumstance.
The first implies intent,.. the second only accident and novelty.
Don Juan tried to get Carlos to see/experience another description of the world. But warned that to get caught up within that description was to miss the point. He wanted him to, by sneaking between the two worlds/description go on to become a man of knowledge.
By implication, he is saying there are at least three levels being discussed here. A "normal" person's description, a "sorcerer's description", and what a "man of knowledge" would expereince or understand. (which may or may not be a description at all)
This leads me to Lex's question;
"Which leaves us wondering what would filaments of light look like. They might not actually BE filaments of light but they look like them. So let me see these "things"that look like filaments of light and I will figure it out from there, right?" Lex
There may be nothing to figure out. Just accept the implications. To become aware of the filaments may just be becoming aware of higher forms than we are used to dealing with. It may very well go on forever.
Ge 28:11
And he lighted upon a certain place, and tarried there all night, because the sun was set; and he took of the stones of that place, and put them for his pillows, and lay down in that place to sleep.
Ge 28:12
And he dreamed, and behold a ladder set up on the earth, and the top of it reached to heaven: and behold the angels of God ascending and descending on it.
Ge 28:13
And, behold, the LORD stood above it, and said, I am the LORD God of Abraham thy father, and the God of Isaac: the land whereon thou liest, to thee will I give it, and to thy seed;
Ge 28:14
And thy seed shall be as the dust of the earth, and thou shalt spread abroad to the west, and to the east, and to the north, and to the south: and in thee and in thy seed shall all the families of the earth be blessed.
Ge 28:15
And, behold, I am with thee, and will keep thee in all places whither thou goest, and will bring thee again into this land; for I will not leave thee, until I have done that which I have spoken to thee of.
Ge 28:16
And Jacob awaked out of his sleep, and he said, Surely the LORD is in this place; and I knew it not.
So Jacob had a vision of a ladder which reached from heaven to earth. Angels ("Malkim" or messengers) were going up and down on it.
Sounds a lot like filiments that connect everything that is. And the malkim could be the "carriers" of those "reaffirmations" or "agreements from the world around us" that Don Juan tells Carlos about. Jacob was having a vision of "what is." What was going on around him that he was not aware of prior to this experience.
But the message, implication or moral of the story was not the ladder/ filaments at all.
It also wasn't the piece of ground he was lying on. (Which has caused wars for thousands of years and is still going on.)
It was the realization that the maker of the "hologram" would be with him wherever he was and that that awareness (or vision) would come to him again.
His "seed", to whom this awareness was also promised, are all those who would have the same realization.
Otherworldly visions can be overwhelming in appearance and scope, but the visual appearance pales in comparison to the implications contained within the event.
"Split a piece of wood and I am there. Lift up a stone and you will find me there." Jesus from the Gospel of Thomas
To some, a rock is just a rock.
Visions, revelations and expanded awareness of our surroundings will always point to something more, something beyond.
Otherwise, what would be the point?
I don't think we will ever figure these things out. Just experience these things and learn to expect more to come.
Whether holograms, telegrams, candygrams,...or "experiences beyond the Norm",..It's the thought that counts.
New Seers and Old Seers - lex icon - 01-28-2011
"Which leaves us wondering what would filaments of light look like. They
might not actually BE filaments of light but they look like them. So
let me see these "things"that look like filaments of light and I will
figure it out from there, right?Lex BOB MAY.
Bob by saying this I was showing how unfortunate it was that DJ even mentioned filaments to begin with because this is the kind of useless speculation it leads to.
New Seers and Old Seers - lex icon - 01-28-2011
“The first truth, (about awareness) he said, was that our familiarity with the world we perceive compels us to believe that we are surrounded by objects, existing by themselves and as themselves, just as we perceive them, whereas, in fact, there is no world of objects, but a universe of eagles emanations.” FFW
There is a lot in this small paragraph. Now I am not asking anyone to believe what Don Juan is saying here, I do not care two hoots whether you believe it or not. What I do care about is that it is understood. That the man’s point of view has been appreciated. Now you might believe you are surrounded by this world of individual objects and nothing can change what appears so self evident. Well fine but is it possible to just for the sake of dialogue to suspend that determination while we explore what DJ is talking about? I mean what did the man experience that led him to make such a radical statement.
What is unfortunate, in my opinion, in DJ’s words above, is when he tags on that last bit, “but a universe of eagles emanations.” You see we need more space to contemplate the no objects before jumping to what I believe is a level of metaphysical interpretation, “eagles emanations”. Unfortunately what has happened amongst seers today is that because of our “new” familiarity with DJs world view through CCs words, we simply accommodate the radical statement of no objects, by saying, “yes its all energetic” or words to that effect and we suck it into our existing inventory.
What happens when we do this is we simply replace the familiar world of objects with an energetic version of it. By doing this we avoid the ontological challenge implicit in DJ’s words, that there are no objects, solid or otherwise. You see if we cannot face this squarely for more than just a moment, then the question, “well what is it we are seeing?” will gain no traction, if it even arises at all. I still want to keep that on hold until later if we could. I do want to speak about that but there is more to see about no objects first.
DJ makes the comment above that when we are “compelled” to believe we are surrounded by objects, these objects appear to exist “by themselves and as themselves”. Now that is a very precise statement. If we can unravel this one statement the internal dialogue will cease and its world will collapse. Wow an energetic wave just passed and staggered me for a moment and I quite literally had to go evacuate my bowels lol. An omen perhaps?
New Seers and Old Seers - lex icon - 01-29-2011
"If the concreteness of reality is but a holographic illusion, it would
no longer be true to say the brain produces consciousness. Rather, it is
consciousness that creates the appearance of the brain--as well as the body and everything else around us we interpret as physical."
Keith Floyd
Now this is the kind of thing I was hoping for in progressing with this discussion. If we can admit even if just for a moment "no objects" then we can then look for the implications of this, which for me are very interesting and hold the possibility of transformation.
New Seers and Old Seers - Nagual LoneWolf - 01-29-2011
I agree, we create objects whether they truly exist or not. The world is our shared assemblage point but most beings on this world have different aps. We humans have many variables and most of us are very different from each other in how we/they create the world. The man in Denmark sees and feels the world different than the man in Boston and both are really different from the eskimo at the North Pole. That is just on a human level. A world of objects not actually there creates the sorcerer's mentally though. Makes one realized nothing matters yet we still create our matter.
New Seers and Old Seers - Wei Shan Yang - 01-29-2011
"Makes one realized nothing matters yet we still create our matter."
And this is where the path with heart comes in. I almost hate to use the phrase "path with heart" its so overused...see thats my percepotion/ap So maybe I could say..."this is where our sacred joy comes in." Joy that comes from out of nowhere, grabs us and tell us..."love is this way...follow".
Sacred joy...I love foreign movies, I love the smell and taste of coffee, I love the nighttime, I love jazz playing in the apartment while looking out my balcony window (its floor to ceiling in height) at the skyscrapers and trains passing at dusk. Why do I have such joys? I don't know...its a mystery but I love it! Life without such joys is meaningless.
But also life without freedom, non-attachment can impact the joys too,...take away the spontaneity and wonder of transformation (release). So its good to see nothing matters (free) but it still matters (joy).
New Seers and Old Seers - lex icon - 01-29-2011
Visions, revelations and expanded awareness of our surroundings will always point to something more, something beyond.
Otherwise, what would be the point? Bob May
Well yes and no. Visions revelations etc often point point to something more especially when it is a revelation of something unknown which then becomes known expanding one’s personal awareness. And they very often point to something more, beyond this. However we cannot concluded from this that such a statement concerns the unknowable. DJ said we can glimpse the unknowable but thought that the task was to separate it from the unknown. So we have the finite, definable known and the infinite unknown that expands the known through conscious contact. So how do we even “know” there is an unknowable? How do we “glimpse” the unknowable.
I don't think we will ever figure these things out. Just experience these things and learn to expect more to come. Bob May
Genaro and Silvio Manuel are very much like the old seers in some respects. They know what they can do , but they don't care to know how they do it. FFW