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Accepting money -- entitlement? or not - Guest - 06-08-2012
sikimiwa, and anyone else who'd like to respond, can you please tell your views on Native American (or Canadian) Indians accepting large portions of money from their gov't out of a sense of entitlement (not talking compensation for being abused) or for payment for 'their' land. Can you explain how it is ok to accept money for these things, but not as payment for spiritual teachings? How can a person, or people own land, but not knowledge, teachings or information? If you have a clear understanding, please because I can not see a difference.
sikimiwa wrote:to
put it bluntly QuantumShaman ™ i pretend nothing. my only hope floats
on someone else can see, if this is a nagual forum. i think i made
enough noise. i do not think that you understand what i am talking
about.
I think we are at a stand-still.
Yes. you are correct. i
am losing my desire to post here. I would like to end this conversation
with you, and i hold nothing. I am sending you a private message now,
actually.
Accepting money -- entitlement? or not - Guest - 06-08-2012
Ah a nice start.
though i think that Indian disputes is a strange topic for a nagual forum. what the hell, though.
Your question is circumstantial. I cannot speak for other tribes, but my family, nor do i accept this money. You have to understand, that we are people just like you, and dont make decisions in unison all the time. there are good and bad people in all the colors. so im not speaking for any Indians, i will share with you an article that got very popular in my hometown, and quite heated, because someone like you asked the exact same thing. this is a good one, too , because there is debate over a treaty.
""
I am Western Shoshone and the
letter you wrote has no respect:
1. We are not a conquered people, we
are alive and living, and we are not going away.
2. Yes, our Chiefs
signed the Ruby Valley Treaty of 1863, what you don’t know is how the
Treaty was signed. It was told by the U.S government to the Shoshone
people not to bring weapons because this Treaty was of “Peace and
Friendship,” when our ancestors arrived they seen the soldiers’ guns
stacked up, the Shoshone people were told to sit down, plates with meat
was placed in front of them all (men, women and children), one person
tasted the meat and told the rest of the people not to eat it because it
was bad meat. The meat? It was an Indian man that was killed early in
the week; he was placed in a large caldron and cooked. The soldiers
picked up and pointed their guns at the Shoshone people and was told to
eat the meat, they did, they had no choice. Then the Treaty of “Peace
and Friendship” was signed. Really peace and friendship? I know this
because my Great, Great, Great Grandfather (To-Nag) signed that Treaty,
it has been told from generation to generation. (I have a letter that
you should read, telling of this horrible crime).
3. All our land was
taken and the U.S. government made the reservations, and for
compensation to the tune of hundreds of millions. Ha — if we had these
hundreds of millions that you speak of, we would all be living in
mansions and driving Rolls Royce cars. Some Shoshones did receive
$22,012 and a little bit more is supposed to be here in June, and you
think that adds up to hundreds of millions, get your facts straight.
4.
We do not live in free housing, we all make house payments and in about
30 years we will own our homes, so our houses are not free and our homes
are not above standards, and the upkeep of our houses are not free, we
have to pay just like your people.
5. Our people are not supplied with
thousands and thousands of dollars of free food. If you are talking
about the commodity food that some get from the U.S. government, your
people are entitled to this too. Do you really think that if the Western
Shoshone received thousands and thousands of dollars of free food that
we would even step into a grocery store?
6. We do not receive free
medical care. Yes, we do have the Indian Health Services clinic, but
it’s just for general care. If we need a specialist we have to go
downtown or out of state, and sometimes we have to pay for the doctor
bills ourselves. Just like your people.
7. I would like to know what “other” benefits we
receive that your people do not receive. And as far as the promises in
the treaty — none of the promises were kept. (Maybe you should read the
treaty again).
8. And our standard of living has not improved, our
health has gotten worse than what it was 150 years ago. My people have
diabetes, high blood pressure, high cholesterol, cancer and alcoholism,
and where do you think we got that from — your people.
9. Is just plain
wrong on your part —check the statistics. And who are you to tell us to
“Accept that.” Accept what? Accept the genocide against the Western
Shoshone people, the beating and raping of our Shoshone women and
children by the soldiers who took our people and put them barricades at
Fort Ruby and Fort Halleck, the taking of the our ancestors when they
were small children and thrown into the boarding schools, their hair cut
and told not to speak their language and if they spoke their language
they would get beat. Do you know what happened in those boarding schools
—the same thing the soldiers did to the women and children, yes, that’s
right raping, beating and killing. And you expect us to just “ACCEPT
THAT.” ——————— Marla Stanton of Wells is a Western Shoshone descendant
of a signer of the 1863 Treaty of Ruby Valley.
"""
i do no think you are well educated on Indian affairs, and may be stereotyping them.
Of course, this is just my local issue.
my opinion, again, i was raised that it is not good to accept the money. you have what you have.
about the land.
can you blame them for fighting for it, to keep the factories and mines and drills off of it??? here in the last decade 3 species have gone extinct because of mines on Shoshone land. It is never on the news, what they do to the Earth here. This is HARDLY the horror, on a nationwide scale.
on this subject, i would recommended watching this film:
http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0462340/plotsummary
it is very good.
it may provide some insight on why Natives want some of "their" land back.
So how do you feel about people of all Nations accepting hand-outs? Does it justify for charging for the invisible? Again it comes down to the individual, and what they understand. The worlds we are talking about both have two very different methods of work.
It is sad to me you cant see a difference.
i see the conversation ending like the last one.
Accepting money -- entitlement? or not - Guest - 06-08-2012
I'm not blaming anyone for fighting for land. I admire that! Someone has to do it! My question was about ownership of that land and taking money for it. Thanks for answering. Although I feel like you slightly misunderstood my question. I happen to follow these activisms quite closely and was never questionning why Natives want their land back. (many of them in fact, such as the black oil pipeline I also follow in dreaming) I have a fine connection with the Natives and Elders around here so your estimation that I am not well educated on these matters, is a bit off, however I can see how you would conclude this.
The difference I do not see is in trading land for money vs trading knowledge for money. The rest I understand very well.
Accepting money -- entitlement? or not - quantumshaman - 06-08-2012
Skimiwa...
Your entire post reads like a cry for pity. The bottom line is that this is ancient history. Your people were wronged by the "white people". I get it. But I didn't do it and neither did anyone on this forum. Rather like modern-day Jews who blame modern-day Germans for the holocaust. We can all feel bad about it, but none of us were there, so what's the point re-hashing it again and again as if we're going to solve/cure the past? Can't be done. My people were plundered by the Crusaders in the 9th century. So what?
I'm not meaning to be insensitive. I'm merely trying to point out to you that your arguments have strayed FAR from the point, which I also believe may be part of your agenda - distract, divide, dissipate.
What's REALLY got your panties in a knot? Let's talk about THAT rather than ancient history? What does ANY of this have to do with Toltec teachings or traditions?
Accepting money -- entitlement? or not - Guest - 06-08-2012
So would you say, then that it's ok, (as in karmically correct) to accept monies for tangible items, such as land, food, lodging etc, but not for invisibles such as knowledge?
Accepting money -- entitlement? or not - Gonzo - 06-08-2012
Here's what I thought was a good article dealing somewhat with the business of "selling spirituality".
http://www.thetrackingpro...iteups/theftofspirit.htm
Perhaps one of the big differences between NA's and our current culture is that the WhiteMan culture is centered around money. If you wish to show interest in something, you pony up the bucks and expect to get what you pay for, whereas in NA culture, there is perhaps a different style of "commerce". It seems to revolve around "filthy lucre".
Accepting money -- entitlement? or not - Guest - 06-08-2012
Gonzo wrote:Here's what I thought was a good article dealing somewhat with the business of "selling spirituality".
http://www.thetrackingpro...iteups/theftofspirit.htm
Perhaps one of the big differences between NA's and our current culture is that the WhiteMan culture is centered around money. If you wish to show interest in something, you pony up the bucks and expect to get what you pay for, whereas in NA culture, there is perhaps a different style of "commerce". It seems to revolve around "filthy lucre".
Nice article
Accepting money -- entitlement? or not - Guest - 06-08-2012
Did the Toltecs charge their children...
Accepting money -- entitlement? or not - quantumshaman - 06-08-2012
sikimiwa wrote:
Did the Toltecs charge their children... Does a bear **** in the woods?
Does the sun rise in the east?
Do birds fly?
Can you go any further off the subject?
Accepting money -- entitlement? or not - quantumshaman - 06-09-2012
Gonzo wrote:
Here's what I thought was a good article dealing somewhat with the business of "selling spirituality".
http://www.thetrackingpro...iteups/theftofspirit.htm
Perhaps one of the big differences between NA's and our current culture is that the WhiteMan culture is centered around money. If you wish to show interest in something, you pony up the bucks and expect to get what you pay for, whereas in NA culture, there is perhaps a different style of "commerce". It seems to revolve around "filthy lucre".Good article, I agree w/ some of it, disagree w/ other parts, but generally speaking, I don't think anyone on this forum is selling or profitting from "Native American rituals or ceremonies." My own work is my own work, and I'm sure Songbird would say the same. Native Americans don't hold the copyright on spirituality, nor does any other group. But like I said - this really isn't about anyone here profitting from Native American rituals. I've been to a few pow-wows, and there's nothing more annoying than some new age bliss ninny "white person" (to borrow Sikimiwa's phrase for a moment) hopping around and pretending to be a Native. OTOH, there's nothing to say that person doesn't have something to offer - but they REALLY need to find their own voice, their own identity.
Like I said to Sikimiwa in response to a private message, I've never charged anyone who has come to me sincerely seeking spiritual knowledge or advice. Anybody who's ever visited my forum or emailed me should certainly know that. But... then again... it's more fun to believe what you want to believe. Truth be damned. There are at least 10K other things we COULD be discussing with equal passion.
Why is this continuing? Or is it simply that no one is the least bit interested in the path, but only in conflict? Seems to be the case.
Accepting money -- entitlement? or not - Guest - 06-09-2012
quantumshaman wrote:
Why is this continuing? Or is it simply that no one is the least bit interested in the path, but only in conflict? Seems to be the case.
I was quite curious about the thought process of a person who thinks it's not ok to charge money for spiritual or dreaming classes, courses or sessions. I got what I was looking for, and then some. Thanks to all who participated.
Accepting money -- entitlement? or not - Gonzo - 06-09-2012
"...on the Path" - what does it mean? The phrase seems to be used to differentiate those who are spiritually seeking, working towards a spiritual goal or state of being, from those who are not. As it was used, the implication was other posters in the thread were more interested in conflict than in "doing the work".
In my opinion, "doing the work" is a private, solo enterprise, not something done in public, not something done on a forum, where perhaps what gets posted is the results of "doing the work", not an exhibition of the process itself.
That someone may post a challenge to an established belief does not in itself indicate the person is not "on the path" nor that he is not "doing the work".
Accepting money -- entitlement? or not - quantumshaman - 06-09-2012
Gonzo wrote:
That someone may post a challenge to an established belief does not in itself indicate the person is not "on the path" nor that he is not "doing the work".No, but what DOES indicate NOT being on the path is spending more hours every day on forums or in chat rooms (the latter in particular - which are the breeding ground of conflict and gossip-mongering). Can't serve two masters. Either one is DOING the path, or one is sitting addle-brained in a chatroom TALKING about what one is NOT doing, creating and dispensing rumors, and generally wasting tremendous amounts of time and energy that can never be regained.
I made that mistake for years. Finally came to my senses and broke the absurd addiction.
Accepting money -- entitlement? or not - Guest - 06-09-2012
sikimiwa wrote
id the Toltecs charge their children... Actually I'm pretty sure the Toltecs ate their children. Not sure how they are relevant to this discussion, though.
Accepting money -- entitlement? or not - Guest - 06-09-2012
quantumshaman wrote:No, but what DOES indicate NOT being on the path is spending more hours every day on forums or in chat rooms (the latter in particular - which are the breeding ground of conflict and gossip-mongering). Can't serve two masters. Either one is DOING the path, or one is sitting addle-brained in a chatroom TALKING about what one is NOT doing, creating and dispensing rumors, and generally wasting tremendous amounts of time and energy that can never be regained.
I disagree. I don't think you can really tell if someone (say a colleague or acquaintance) is on the Path (or not) unless you know them intimately. What we, as warriors -- do with our free time or as folly really may not be much reflection of our Path or inner (spirit) Work.
Accepting money -- entitlement? or not - messengerpidgeon - 06-09-2012
my grandfather told me how to trap a duck , dig a trench , large at the beginning and tapering in as it enters and lace it with bread crumbs , the duck can only walk forwards so it will come straight forward and be unable to open its wings , it is unable to walk backwards so then it can be caught . It is one of many ways .
I can however find no reason to catch a duck really so it is just a passing thought.
Knowledge is power as is experience . both are mutual companions .
Accepting money -- entitlement? or not - Guest - 06-09-2012
messengerpidgeon wrote:
Knowledge is power as is experience . both are mutual companions .
Nice!
Accepting money -- entitlement? or not - quantumshaman - 06-10-2012
songbird wrote:
quantumshaman wrote:
No, but what DOES indicate NOT being on the path is spending more hours every day on forums or in chat rooms (the latter in particular - which are the breeding ground of conflict and gossip-mongering). Can't serve two masters. Either one is DOING the path, or one is sitting addle-brained in a chatroom TALKING about what one is NOT doing, creating and dispensing rumors, and generally wasting tremendous amounts of time and energy that can never be regained.
I disagree. I don't think you can really tell if someone (say a colleague or acquaintance) is on the Path (or not) unless you know them intimately. What we, as warriors -- do with our free time or as folly really may not be much reflection of our Path or inner (spirit) Work.
I think you know what I'm talking about. There are a LOT of persqueeters hanging out in Toltec chat rooms who have been there for years, pandering the same old rhetoric. And actually, I DO know some of them more intimately than I would like, and see no change in their status since I first made their acquaintance years ago. Nothing has changed. Real warriors have precious little time for that kind of folly - certainly not on a daily basis.
Maybe I see it somewhat differently than some due to some recent brushes with mortality. Heh. Hard to find much of value in a chat room when one knows for a fact that any moment may be her last. Somehow, at that point, all the gossiping and sniping and bullshit seem to be nothing more than the prattlings of phantoms.
Yes... I think you can discern that I've "had it" when it comes to chat rooms, and would strongly encourage any real warrior to avoid them like the plague. No good comes of it.
Accepting money -- entitlement? or not - Gonzo - 06-10-2012
quantumshaman wrote
ongbird wrote:quantumshaman wrote:
No, but what DOES indicate NOT being on the path is spending more hours every day on forums or in chat rooms (the latter in particular - which are the breeding ground of conflict and gossip-mongering). Can't serve two masters. Either one is DOING the path, or one is sitting addle-brained in a chatroom TALKING about what one is NOT doing, creating and dispensing rumors, and generally wasting tremendous amounts of time and energy that can never be regained.
I disagree. I don't think you can really tell if someone (say a colleague or acquaintance) is on the Path (or not) unless you know them intimately. What we, as warriors -- do with our free time or as folly really may not be much reflection of our Path or inner (spirit) Work.
I think you know what I'm talking about. There are a LOT of persqueeters hanging out in Toltec chat rooms who have been there for years, pandering the same old rhetoric. And actually, I DO know some of them more intimately than I would like, and see no change in their status since I first made their acquaintance years ago. Nothing has changed. Real warriors have precious little time for that kind of folly - certainly not on a daily basis.
Maybe I see it somewhat differently than some due to some recent brushes with mortality. Heh. Hard to find much of value in a chat room when one knows for a fact that any moment may be her last. Somehow, at that point, all the gossiping and sniping and bullshit seem to be nothing more than the prattlings of phantoms.
Yes... I think you can discern that I've "had it" when it comes to chat rooms, and would strongly encourage any real warrior to avoid them like the plague. No good comes of it.
Unless I'm mistaken, one of your favorite mantras has to do with direct experience. To my knowledge, you have no direct experience of the chat I host. Therefore you are making assumptions about which you know nothing. You're still welcome to join if you would like some first hand experience and perhaps cease with the innuendos.
Accepting money -- entitlement? or not - quantumshaman - 06-10-2012
Gonzo wrote:
Unless I'm mistaken, one of your favorite mantras has to do with direct experience. To my knowledge, you have no direct experience of the chat I host. Therefore you are making assumptions about which you know nothing. You're still welcome to join if you would like some first hand experience and perhaps cease with the innuendos.
You're a hoot. I have had more than enough "experience" with your chat rooms and the games played therein - "Who's the better warrior?" "Who's turn to be in the barrel?" In fact, YOUR chat room was the primary reason I swore off of chat rooms forever - I've never encountered a more mean-spirited bunch of Don Wannabes and phantoms on the road to nowhere. I'm sure you would like to say that has "changed" over the years, but I sincerely doubt it if the rumors I hear are any indication. So I'm not speaking from innuendo, but from direct personal experience over a period of many years. No need to make assumptions when I've been there, done that, broke the addiction, and moved on.
Chat rooms are little more than the breeding ground for conflict, hate and discontent. Yours in particular. No offense - just what is. And I know you know it.
Accepting money -- entitlement? or not - Gonzo - 06-10-2012
quantumshaman wrote:Gonzo wrote:
Unless I'm mistaken, one of your favorite mantras has to do with direct experience. To my knowledge, you have no direct experience of the chat I host. Therefore you are making assumptions about which you know nothing. You're still welcome to join if you would like some first hand experience and perhaps cease with the innuendos.
You're a hoot. I have had more than enough "experience" with your chat rooms and the games played therein - "Who's the better warrior?" "Who's turn to be in the barrel?" In fact, YOUR chat room was the primary reason I swore off of chat rooms forever - I've never encountered a more mean-spirited bunch of Don Wannabes and phantoms on the road to nowhere. I'm sure you would like to say that has "changed" over the years, but I sincerely doubt it if the rumors I hear are any indication. So I'm not speaking from innuendo, but from direct personal experience over a period of many years. No need to make assumptions when I've been there, done that, broke the addiction, and moved on.
Chat rooms are little more than the breeding ground for conflict, hate and discontent. Yours in particular. No offense - just what is. And I know you know it.
So, you're saying you have no experience of the chat room I currently host, yet you still have assumptions concerning what goes on there? Your direct personal experience is of things of the past. You have been There, and done That...you have not experienced the present. As stated...if you wish to know, first hand, the invitation remains open.
Accepting money -- entitlement? or not - quantumshaman - 06-10-2012
Gonzo wrote:
quantumshaman wrote:
Gonzo wrote:
Unless I'm mistaken, one of your favorite mantras has to do with direct experience. To my knowledge, you have no direct experience of the chat I host. Therefore you are making assumptions about which you know nothing. You're still welcome to join if you would like some first hand experience and perhaps cease with the innuendos.
You're a hoot. I have had more than enough "experience" with your chat rooms and the games played therein - "Who's the better warrior?" "Who's turn to be in the barrel?" In fact, YOUR chat room was the primary reason I swore off of chat rooms forever - I've never encountered a more mean-spirited bunch of Don Wannabes and phantoms on the road to nowhere. I'm sure you would like to say that has "changed" over the years, but I sincerely doubt it if the rumors I hear are any indication. So I'm not speaking from innuendo, but from direct personal experience over a period of many years. No need to make assumptions when I've been there, done that, broke the addiction, and moved on.
Chat rooms are little more than the breeding ground for conflict, hate and discontent. Yours in particular. No offense - just what is. And I know you know it.
So, you're saying you have no experience of the chat room I currently host, yet you still have assumptions concerning what goes on there? Your direct personal experience is of things of the past. You have been There, and done That...you have not experienced the present. As stated...if you wish to know, first hand, the invitation remains open.
Nice try, won't fly. The chat room is the same because the host and the participants are the same. That some of them may have new avatars or new gurus is of little consequence.
In this case, "the past" and "the present" are no different. In fact, I would be willing to bet that some of the recent conversations from this forum have been dragged through the mud ad nauseam in your chatroom over the past few days, particularly with regard to the conflict between myself and Sikimiwa. Go ahead - tell me I'm wrong. (And I'll know if you lie... heh). Point being - that aspect never changes, and you yourself have said that you prefer conflict over peace, combat over conversation. You have said it is your intent to put others "in the barrel", and so on. Tell me that is no longer the case. I won't necessarily believe you, but you've given me plenty of reason NOT to.
Accepting money -- entitlement? or not - Gonzo - 06-10-2012
You cannot know if you rely upon rumor.
Accepting money -- entitlement? or not - quantumshaman - 06-10-2012
Gonzo wrote:
You cannot know if you rely upon rumor.
Not relying on rumor. Been there, done that. Why are you even trying to argue this? We both know the history. And we both know what you have said about your own intent with regard to chat and forums. No rumor required. A simple distillation of experience suffices quite nicely, and stretched over a span of at least 5 years, probably longer.
Nothing has changed. And I notice you didn't tell me I'm wrong about my accusations, so I'll take that as validation that my comments in my previous post were on the mark.
Those who can DO. Those who can't... chat. Any questions?
Accepting money -- entitlement? or not - Gonzo - 06-10-2012
Only because of what you just said. You have not been to my current chat, therefore, whatever you think you know of it is hearsay and rumor. I'm not arguing it...I'm telling you you have no experience with my current chat, regardless what you recall from prior experience. You presume nothing has changed, yet, until you find out for yourself, you won't know. If you want to DO, join the chat, and find out first hand.