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Hi Bob,
"I guess I can put forth a Blaming sensation. I am far from the Dispassionate idea put forth by don Juan.
However, even don Juan had passions for some things. I have been thinking about this.
I think that perhaps Leadership requires putting aside personal gripes, and that is what he was teaching."
My teacher used to harp on this subject. He would say; "When emotion and intelligence are at odds, who wins?"
The answer he wanted of course was that emotion always wins out for the majority of human beings. Which is why humanity is a stinking mess.
"..Not judgement, but observation; also very close to Toltec teachings."
But to stifle emotions is to become heartless. Look at the people that are involved with so called cults. Emotionless zombies. Invite some Jehovah's Witnesses or Mormons into your home for a conversation sometime. It is amazing how lifeless they are. (No judgement there, just observation.) They are taught to put down any lust or emotions, but are not taught How to. You cannot bury or deny emotion because it is still there and will come back even stronger later.
You can sublimate it.
Don juan used laughter,wonder and an appreciation for beauty to balance the awesome nature of this world.
To turn one emotion into another I believe.
It occurs to me that that may be the meaning of the Alchemists turning lead and other base metals into gold.Bob
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Well done Bob! You have offered thoughtful words to consider. ~curtsies~
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Right On , Bob May.
I, and maybe We, are struggling with Knowledge.
I think that our problem is that we are removed from , Eden?, or a wholistic understanding. (silly me. I am truly backward when it come to Wholeism)
It sure is ch-ch ch-Changes within the current Culture.
An interesting idea from don Juan, and maybe some others, is that Emotion or control of emotoin , is key to alternate realities.
Like this: that the recall of emotion, not just memory, is the path to 2nd attention.
The damn thing about this is that for us, it is difficult, but, for aboriginals , it was common knowledge. Thus, don Juan's criticism of the
'Rationality' of today.
The Aussie book I read was 'historical fiction'. Many of my other sources, Amerindian , were real history.
Marlo Morgan's book has a photograph with herself and Burnam Burnam, Elder of the Wurundjeri Tribe. The man looks like Maharishi!
Anyway, my point is that, fiction or non-fiction, the Idea of Spirit seems to be finding a Unified Theory among many of those publishing. And, that the
teachings of don Juan are a part of that.
Sadly, I have not encountered this kind of knowledge in person, only in print.
This is the story of creation from Ms. Morgan's book, which she attributed to the Aboriginies:
"In the beginning, in the time before time, there was nothing. No stars, no sun, no earth, nothing. There was only the Great Oneness. And, the Oneness
began to DREAM! In this Dreamtime, Oneness expanded to make a layer of Oneness Spirit. The layer was given free-will conciousness. The Rainbow Snake (Eagle?)
is the carrier of this spirit Energy, and it enabled our ancestors to be. The world was created by invisible ENERGY , and ancestor DREAMERS were free to design
it in any way they chose...."
So, here is a Sorcerers' Story from half a world away, that reflects the same stories of the Americas, and don Juan.
It seems that Spirit comes from the very soil beneath our feet, like the foods that sustain us.
Supposedly, the Aboriginies claim psychic abilities, as don Juan was a SEER. Don Juan said that this was our Heritage, diminished by Rationality.
Though weak, I have experienced that. And Dreams? Thanks to Castaneda, and attention, my dreams are becoming , well, more real.
Ask me about the Bear and
the Horses!
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Hi Bob,
"An interesting idea from don Juan, and maybe some others, is that Emotion or control of emotoin , is key to alternate realities.
Like this: that the recall of emotion, not just memory, is the path to 2nd attention.
The damn thing about this is that for us, it is difficult, but, for aboriginals , it was common knowledge."
In the method and school of thought that I learned in we were taught "body awareness" as a first step to meditation. In other words to
be able to sit for hours not moving a muscle. It begins with discipline. Much like stories I've heard of aboriginals in Australia being able to stand
(sometimes on only one leg) for hours on end. So disconnectd from their bodies that a fly would crawl across their eyeballs and they would not move.
A side effect of this when done to a certain proficiency is that emotions also have no control over the practitioner (at least not during the meditation). We
were taught that emotion is just a feeling in the body. If you cannot feel your body, emotion has no effect upon you. I have experienced this when in deep
"body awareness."
Much of what we call emotion is just a "body memory" of that same emotion at a different time in the past. A secretion of the adrenal glands or some
other chemical reaction in our bodies. Kind of like "Pavlov's dog."
If a coon dog gets beat every time he chases a possum, he starts to lose his taste for possum.
There is a story there from my own family. My uncle Tom hunted coons. He had a coon dog named Buck who got in the habit of chasing opossums during a coon hunt.
One night Buck caught a opossum and my uncle caught him with the opossum. My uncle Tom said he grabbed Buck by his collar and the dead opossum by the tail and
beat the dog half to death using the opossum as a club. He said Buck never chased opossums after that night. The scent of opossum became a trigger for the dog.
A bad memory. Bad emotions. We all have these triggers usually a sick feeling in our solar plexus area. It can be regret or fear or sorrow etc. These emotions
get less and less frequent under the effect of "body awareness" and "mind awareness" or "recapitulation."
Most schools of thought have some kind of discipline concerning the control of the body, whether it is fasting or seclusion, meditation, comcentrated effort,
etc. How many times did Don Juan have Carlos out in the desert sitting or gazing for hours on end. Or doing the power gait two steps behind himfor hours in
complete darkness.
The first step in believing we are more than this "sack of meat" we live in is to distance ourselves from this "sack of meat".
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Hello Bob M
I think I understand what you are saying here. I tend to think of discipline more as Focus
However , in the case of a Castaneda, or even myself, discipline seems to be more about, can't remember the word I had in mind:; how about De-Programming?
I am thinking of Discipine more in the Training of the novice. By that, I mean the structuring of abilities discovered, or latent, or at hand.
How strange we humans are!
As a Christian, you must know the saying that there is none so blind as one who will not see, etc.
But, it is greater than Faith; it is Knowing, it is Education to Systems that are generally Unknown to, or unacceptable to, the everyday human being.
I concieve of Spirit as Air, or Radiation: Invisible, yet with Effect. Doesn't it seem so simple, as a scientific reality, yet so easily denied?
Do you remember that Carlos episode where he was collared like a dog to a post? I can't recall the exact word , but don Juan's cohort shouted it? I
keep thinking -Attention! Attention!
Dreaming. Until I noticed , from these books, I never paid enough attention to that place between Waking and Dreaming. Many Writers find their inspiration
there, and get out of bed to note it. Now, I find a lot of activity there, though my lifestyle does not allow me to chronicle a lot of it.
Attention. By paying attention, and accepting a reality, my dreams have indeed become a part of living, though not, in my case, as useful as don Juan taught
Is it possible that psycic abilities, as the Abos claim, is our genetic future, or our heritage, if we could find mind silence?
"At the still point of the turning world. Neither flesh nor fleshless;
Neither from nor towards; at the still point, there the dance is,
But neither arrest nor movement. And do not call it fixity,
Where past and future are gathered.
Neither movement from nor towards,
Neither ascent nor decline. Except for the Point. The Still point,
There would be no dance, and there is only the dance
T.S. Eliot
by way of Sci-Fi author Julian May
Oh, this: do you recall how don Juan would say that Carlos had a violent nature?
Well, I identify with that , to my shame, and my dreams have reflected it.
I struggle, as a Warrior, to overcome. At work this week, there was a lockdown because of an abusive male over his wife or whatever.
A warrior is a peacemaker, not an abuser.
(the Italics are an accident, will remove)
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Hi Bob,
"I concieve of Spirit as Air, or Radiation: Invisible, yet with Effect. Doesn't it seem so simple, as a scientific reality, yet so easily denied?
"
In the Qabala the Hebrew letters Mem (M), Shin (Sh) and Aleph (A) all mean Spirit. Water, Fire and Air respectively. Each a specific aspect of Spirit. Jesus
recieved the Spirit at Baptism (water) and transfered it to his disciples by breathing on them at one point and also warned of a "Baptism of Fire" to
come.
"Do you remember that Carlos episode where he was collared like a dog to a post? I can't recall the exact word , but don Juan's cohort shouted it?
I keep thinking -Attention! Attention! "
No, not specifically.
"Dreaming. Until I noticed , from these books, I never paid enough attention to that place between Waking and Dreaming. Many Writers find their
inspiration there, and get out of bed to note it. Now, I find a lot of activity there, though my lifestyle does not allow me to chronicle a lot of it.
Attention. By paying attention, and accepting a reality, my dreams have indeed become a part of living, though not, in my case, as useful as don Juan taught
"
In the Celtic beliefs and also Don Juan's anything that is nether this nor that is magical, ..borderlines. Twilight whether at evening or morning was
called the "time between times" and very easy to open doors to unknown. Changes of seasons, Soltices, equinoxes etc. I have awakened being taught
many times as well as gotten songs and ideas for inventions and answers to problems etc. upon awakening. The same thing (that place in consciousness) can be
more controlably sought in meditation also.
I think the main thing about it is to keep a desire or problem (I mean this in the mathematical sense of a problem to be solved) in your desires or the back
of your mind etc. The answer will come but in it's own time. It is "magical", but after a while you come to realise that we are magical beings
and that is the way we were built to function. In the West as a culture we have lost this aspect of mind function. (I blame Aristotle.) But only as a culture,
not as individuals. It has to be exercised like any other muscle. Artists and poets and other right brain thinkers seem to fall into it easier, but it is
available to us all.
My teacher talked about the Akashic Records where everything ever thought or happened is stored. It can be visited and made use of. "There is nothing new
under the sun."
While recovering from surgery a few years back I got into the habit of sitting on my steps outside at twilight and gazing at the woods outside my door. At
these quiet times the sounds of nature were speaking directly to me. Making use of turning off the internal dialog and the "time between times" and
gazing at the same time showed outstanding results. And three is used in the "manifestation in matter" in both Qabala and Celtic practices.
We learn the principles and then apply them in our own ways. Use your imagination. You are learning some interesting principles just by being open to your
studies. I see it in your writng.
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Bob May wrote:
"If I did not practice silence, I would have nothing to share of a spiritual nature. If I did not share, there would be no purpose for spiritual
experience. (that is beyond my own benefit)"
I very much like you attitude to this Bob May. People often like to keep silent about things, because that is "the proper thing to do".
Silentium aureum est. These people may not realize how (even) experience can be transmitted with words.
People often have the notion of dangerous knowledge - keeping things away because they are dangerous. Im not saying there is no such knowledge, though
personally I agree what DJ nicely described here:
Don Juan said:
"It doesn't matter what one reveals or what one keeps to oneself," he said. "Everything we do, everything we are, rests on our personal
power. If we have enough of it, one word uttered to us might be sufficient to change the course of our lives. But if we don't have enough personal power,
the most magnificent piece of wisdom can be revealed to us and that revelation won't make a damn bit of difference." (…)
"I'm going to utter perhaps the greatest piece of knowledge anyone can voice," he said. "Let me see what you can do with it.
"Do you know that at this very moment you are surrounded by eternity? And do you know that you can use that eternity, if you so desire?" (…)
"You didn't have this knowledge before," he said, smiling. "Now you do. I have revealed it to you. But it doesn't make a bit of
difference because you don't have enough personal power to utilize my revelation.
"Yet if you did have enough power, my words alone would serve as the means for you to round up the totality of yourself, and get the crucial part of it
out of the boundaries in which it is contained."
He came to my side and poked my chest with his fingers. It was a very light tap.
"These are the boundaries I'm talking about," he said. "One can get out of them. We are a feeling; an awareness encased here."
******* *******
Talking to other people, animals, plants, god… it is all a means to connect.. create a connecting link. I too agree with what you wrote here:
Bob May wrote:
"In my opinion that is true, but I think praying IS just talking. If we get over making this more mysterious than it is we are better off. We make more
out of it than it is and there we go with the mental gymnastics again. It is nothing more than talking (internally or audibly) knowing that someone is
listening. I remember the day that that simple truth hit me. I even asked the pastor in my church at the time if I could give a sermon on it. Which I did.
If God is who He is purported to be we are not at all suprising Him with how stupid we are by not wording things correctly or not following some man-made
formula for approaching Him. Hell, He doesn't even need words to know what we want or whether or not we want whats ultimately good for us."
What you write is true, but if we look at the function of talking… it is as I wrote above. One could say that it is the starting point.
How does a child learn to read? It reads out loud. That is the first stage, children do it instinctively. In the past grown men would read like that. We
evolve..
******* *******
Bob May wrote:
""When emotion and intelligence are at odds, who wins?" The answer he wanted of course was that emotion always wins out for the majority of
human beings. Which is why humanity is a stinking mess."
But to stifle emotions is to become heartless. Look at the people that are involved with so called cults. Emotionless zombies
You cannot bury or deny emotion because it is still there and will come back even stronger later. You can sublimate it.
Don juan used laughter,wonder and an appreciation for beauty to balance the awesome nature of this world.
To turn one emotion into another I believe.
It occurs to me that that may be the meaning of the Alchemists turning lead and other base metals into gold."
So how should one decide? I don't think the answer is to stop emotion. This is way too wrong. Later on Bob May speaks about how in a
meditation you can be in one place for hours without moving and also not feel emotion. If emotion is a feeling of the body... well that's ok. If we do
things we should do them with the wholeness of ourselves. Often decisions on where to go are felt like this, you know... take the road less traveled by and
make all the difference. People tend to be deaf to their body. The signals they get from it.
How should one decide? If you turn emotions like fear and terror into laughter, wonder etc, what does that do to the act of deciding?
******* *******
Bob Carr wrote:
"An interesting idea from don Juan, and maybe some others, is that Emotion or control of emotoin , is key to alternate realities.
Like this: that the recall of emotion, not just memory, is the path to 2nd attention.
The damn thing about this is that for us, it is difficult, but, for aboriginals , it was common knowledge. Thus, don Juan's criticism of the
'Rationality' of today. "
This makes sense.. hooking up to an emotion you remember when being in a certain state is the gate into to that state. This is very dangerous when
traumatic experiences are in play. That is why people tend to forget those. Either the whole event, or the emotion and only have the event as a fact in their
memory.
******* *******
Bob May wrote:
The first step in believing we are more than this "sack of meat" we live in is to distance ourselves from this "sack of meat".
Love your sack of meat
******* *******
Bob May wrote:
"My idea of a deer over-spirit comes from a certain theory I heard from my teacher. That animals, when they die, are not as humans. They do not have
"spirit" as do humans and their soul as an individual is absorbed like a drop in the sea. so whatever individuality they had ceases to be at
death."
Plants are also like this, are they not? So when you take a power plant you communicate with the over spirit of that plants race. This over spirit
changes/evolves depending on the role of the plant in the world, and also in human society, but it changes very slowly, over hundreds of years.
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Hi Watergaze,
"It doesn't matter what one reveals or what one keeps to oneself," he said. "Everything we do, everything we are, rests on our personal
power. If we have enough of it, one word uttered to us might be sufficient to change the course of our lives. But if we don't have enough personal power,
the most magnificent piece of wisdom can be revealed to us and that revelation won't make a damn bit of difference." (…) "
"Do you know that at this very moment you are surrounded by eternity? And do you know that you can use that eternity, if you so desire?" (…)
Great choice of Don Juan quotes. One of my favorite.
It brings to mind the whole feeling of the Gospel of Thomas, one of the scrolls found in Nag Hammadi. The whole tenor of the book is one of the Kingdom of
Heaven being right here, available right now, yet invisible. As opposed to the erroneous idea of most religious people that look at it as something that comes
after death if you are good enough.
But if you have the personal power or Faith in that one concept, it can open the way to an entirely different view of existence. If a person's idea of
Eternity as Don Juan puts it or Jesus' Kingdom of Heaven remains what it has always been they are stuck where they have always been.
The idea that it is always off in some future time means it never gets here.
"Yet if you did have enough power, my words alone would serve as the means for you to round up the totality of yourself, and get the crucial part of it
out of the boundaries in which it is contained."
He came to my side and poked my chest with his fingers. It was a very light tap.
"These are the boundaries I'm talking about," he said. "One can get out of them. We are a feeling; an awareness encased here."
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