06-12-2017, 12:01 AM
Yesterday JJ copy pasted something from this thread into our chat and we started talking about what it means, etc. We decided to put it here for others to read, if they like.
Thnx rosy for bringing up interesting topics
[13:44:01] Julio Juliopolis: Im trying to figure out what this means “My worry in the case of refugees from attrocity and war is that it is their known social conditioning and experience.
yet when the comparitve internal and external environment is aligned it does not match their surroundings.
For the average rat race european human the refugees of war are arriving on the crest of experience they themselves cannot hope to perceive in terms of own known accord.
The way I see it this creates a pressure, where the average "civilised" European has vast areas of unclaimed power in the fringe expereinces of war, attrocity and death.
whilst the new arrivals have an unforeborne "known" of war attrocity and death."
[13:45:05] watergaze: i dont understand it all either. The middle part is strangely written. “the comparative internal and external environment” - what is that ? . But the other part is clear enough.
[13:47:16] Julio Juliopolis: The first part I believe means he's concerned with the fact that these people have experienced atrocities, and this will affect others they come into contact with.
[13:50:10] watergaze: it is the social conditioning of the refugees to experience violence; hence they will bring this along with them to peaceful parts and experience it there too. That is the worry. Then comes the part about the comparative stuff i dont get (comparative internal and external environment). Then the problem is that this alignment for atrocities does not match their surroundings (which are peaceful). The refugees have experience that the average European does not.
[13:51:38] Julio Juliopolis: I'm with you so far
[13:51:42] watergaze: the fact that there is such a gap of experience creates pressure. The end
[13:52:17] Julio Juliopolis: heh. You ended it right before my questions
[13:52:37] watergaze: that is the end. Questions are not in the text . But do say
[13:53:15] Julio Juliopolis: ok. Well the first question is why does this create a pressure? Or perhaps the first question should be, what is this pressure?
[13:55:43] watergaze: what is the pressure is what creates the pressure. It is not in the text specifically stated, other than 'the difference', the gap in experiences. You should be aware that sometimes this gap creates pressure. Like someone knows something that another does not, sometimes creates pressure. Or someone can do something that another cannot, etc.
[13:56:50] Julio Juliopolis: Does it really though?
[13:56:55] watergaze: yea, sadly it does. Or someone is treated in a way that another is not
[13:57:17] Julio Juliopolis: For example, I know a lot about playing Quake 3, does this create any pressure on you to play the game?
[13:57:44] watergaze: dont bring silly examples, but yea i can imagine there being a person who would fit that. A kid who wants to be good at the game for whatever silly reason but for them important. Pressure is built between people for all kinds of reasons that do not seem very logical. Personality stuff for example. It is why sorcerers live together. the pressure grinds their rough edges. The problem is normal people dont know how to deal with pressure. And even for sorcerers it’s a challenge.
[13:59:45] Julio Juliopolis: Is the pressure created automatically though, or is it something we create?
[14:00:00] watergaze: it is created by our stiffness. Rigidity.
[14:00:08] Julio Juliopolis: (That was what my "silly example" was trying to get at)
[14:00:19] watergaze: lack of fluidity. And people as societies are pretty rigid, set in their ways. And even if these refugees come with hope for living in peace they bring conflict with them (in their perception, awareness, way of life). They will struggle with these things. Maybe not externally, but internally. And we know internal influences stuff. The society in general can accommodate a couple of rough/broken elements without it becoming a problem, but there is a limit to it. We have a set AP position and a couple of strays get aligned with it. Too many strays and the general AP is shifted too. Instead of shifting them they will shift us. But that is not what rosy speaks of, just my aside
[14:03:53] Julio Juliopolis: Isn't it? That's what I thought his worry was
[14:04:01] watergaze: he doesnt speak of APs. He talks of pressure. But it links, hence I said it
[14:04:16] Julio Juliopolis: That these refugees, because of the violence that they've experienced will cause others to experience it
[14:04:19] watergaze: but he doesnt mention it in the excerpt you posted
[14:04:24] Julio Juliopolis: Well, same thing different words
[14:04:28] watergaze: yes. I just said it’s not what he wrote, but its linked. So yea, any more questions?
[14:06:37] Julio Juliopolis: I'm not sure what this means "where the average "civilised" european has vast areas of unclaimed power in the fringe expereinces of war, attrocity and death."... I'm guessing it relates to the unknown, but why does something being unknown make it vast unclaimed power?
[14:07:17] watergaze: it is empowering to have cleared up these aspects of life. If you know how to face these things it empowers you. The people who come from those areas have a certain power and sharpness that we do not. Hence they can get on top of us easily in some areas. Just like these muslims and arabs and whatnot are starting to be dominant in eruopean societies, even though they are minorities.
[14:09:53] Julio Juliopolis: And this is why rosy thinks they're going to be more able to "manifest" stuff?
[14:10:05] watergaze: does he say that? i dont know. gotta ask him
[14:10:49] Julio Juliopolis: Well he talks about whether "civilised" or "barbaric" has more mandate to manifest, and he has some concerns so...
[14:13:15] watergaze: the part about the mandate to manifest was not in the extract you posted
[14:13:58] Julio Juliopolis: It was in the original post. "4) is there any mandate that says the civilised should have priority in manifestation over the barbaric. (other than the need for our planet to survive)."
[14:14:21] watergaze: i dont understand the use of the term mandate here. And of course there is no unspoken law of the universe that says that.
[14:14:52] Julio Juliopolis: Right
[14:14:58] watergaze: and the planet might survive better with the barbaric people ruling
[14:15:17] Julio Juliopolis: I think he's worrying needlessly. Both war and peace have existed for a long time. This isn't the first time veterans of war have found themselves back in peaceful societies
[14:15:55] watergaze: imo it’s different due to culture. Not the war and peace stuff. A country can absorb its veterans. It’s been done many times over
[14:16:13] Julio Juliopolis: And of course there's the higher guru-principal of unbiasedness, and not making the experiences "wrong" by calling them atrocities in the first place
[14:16:34] watergaze: the thing is when veterans who come back to their country, they are still of that country and society
[14:16:57] Julio Juliopolis: True
[14:17:09] watergaze: i dont understand your last
[14:17:34] Julio Juliopolis: You don't?
[14:17:38] watergaze: no
[14:18:09] Julio Juliopolis: hmmm. Well "wrong" is an opinion. And making experiences "wrong" or "bad" is an unhelpful thing to do
[14:19:21] watergaze: i understood that much
[14:19:27] Julio Juliopolis: To clarify You make them that way by forming your opinion that they are that way.
[14:19:33] watergaze: ok, well, why should there be a higher guru principle? Does rosy call it wrong?
[14:20:13] Julio Juliopolis: He uses the word "atrocity", which implies very bad, or very wrong
[14:20:19] watergaze: you see if we want to move forward toward something then what is preventing us or getting us to go backwards is seen as wrong. Nothing wrong with seeing it like that
[14:20:34] Julio Juliopolis: hehe
[14:20:35] watergaze: atrocity is something gruesome and cruel. Not so much 'wrong'. Wiki says: “wicked and cruel act, typically one involving physical violence and injury” or humorous “a highly unpleasant or distasteful object”
[14:21:50] Julio Juliopolis: yep
[14:22:02] watergaze: and it is wicked and cruel what happens in those regions
[14:22:03] Julio Juliopolis: Like "That show was an atrocity"
[14:22:05] watergaze: like in Africa. Cutting off children's ears and noses and mutilating people etc. You can call that an atrocity. People from those regions are sane when they seek refuge in Europe. The problem is they are the people who were around for these situations of atrocity to be born in the first place. It’s kinda bad when it is said like this. At least in the normal perception. But the problem in these regions is that life is not valued in the same way as it is in Europe. And these mind-sets come here and change things for us here. They look at our world with this lack in place and act in our world with this lack in place. Some individuals shift due to what they experienced, I'd think. And some have been not so bound with the way things have been in the society around them. But in sheer numbers, the many many people who come... It is impossible that all those among them are the exceptions
[14:27:01] Julio Juliopolis: Well, certainly they come with a different general AP
[14:27:17] watergaze: yes, but that in itself would not have to be dangerous. The problem is what kind of AP they come with. Sure, if we want to stay the same then any different AP is a problem. But we dont have to stay unchanged. The problem imo is what change it is. In the US lots of people from different societies came by. The Irish flooded them and totally changed the place at one time (after the potato crop failures). I guess they brought violence too….
[14:29:35] Julio Juliopolis: I know they were discriminated against when they came here
[14:29:47] watergaze: well then that was a problem that created the violence
[14:30:17] Julio Juliopolis: There were some Irish mobs, but beyond that I don't know much about their experiences. Or maybe it was just one Irish mob. Anyway they seem to get along in the US just fine now.
I'm trying to reconcile the big picture of these concerns though with the more "sorceric view", as I understand it...
[14:32:48] watergaze: the above is already explained through sorcery. It is not the common view of how things function. If it were, Europe would never have allowed these refugees to come. But go on
[14:33:26] Julio Juliopolis: Which, I would describe as "The universe throws whatever experiences and challenges it wants at us. While we're here we do our best to learn from them. This is just one dream of many and if an experience kills us, we just go elsewhere"
[14:33:47] watergaze: not all bad things happen for a reason. Not all hardships are necessary. We make things harder for ourselves.
[14:34:01] Julio Juliopolis: Thus it really doesn't matter what the challenges are. Whether it be immigrants or whatever.
[14:34:22] watergaze: sometimes we get stuck instead of moving forward . And if you think if doesnt matter what and when it kills us… that is is all the same… what is the point of living to tomorrow? You can just off yourself now and be done with it
[14:35:08] Julio Juliopolis: I could
[14:35:16] watergaze: or could you?
[14:35:30] Julio Juliopolis: Ok, I couldn't... But it's like a soccer game... the end score doesn't matter, or who wins, or when it ends. Just how well you played and if you had the sense to enjoy yourself. You play like your life depends on it, (which in the game of life, it does), but you only play like that because it's more fun (chuckle)
[14:38:52] watergaze: yea but if the game takes place 5 seconds or 50 minutes is quite a difference. Your learning and enjoyment are different
[14:39:21] Julio Juliopolis: It's not that big a diffference when what follows the game is another game of life
[14:39:33] watergaze: and whether you have an opponent that is decent and plays according to the rules or whether they are a-holes and kick you in the knee and whatnot and injure you...
you speak as if you never played a good dame of soccer. Sad, 'tis sad
[14:40:00] Julio Juliopolis: lol. Never with anyone who tried to injure me I admit
[14:40:18] watergaze: the stuff you can learn... in a good game of soccer. The thing is with good games the learning opportunities are gigantic
[14:41:08] Julio Juliopolis: True
[14:41:15] watergaze: and moving on to another game does not give you those lessons. Or gives them on a longer to be learned scale. So leaving the field and the experience of learning is a bad move imo. And same goes to what we were talking about before this analogy.
[14:42:14] Julio Juliopolis: perhaps... but in the game of life we don't have the controls over how long it will last and who we'll play against and what the rules are that we do in a game of soccer
[14:42:37] watergaze: I play in this life in a way like I do on a soccer field. For me it’s all the same – life.
In a game of soccer you dont have that either. Not really.
[14:43:36] Julio Juliopolis: More control than in life. At least in some aspects. You still play it the same way in either case imo. If suddenly a bunch of pirates move into minneapolis, and everyone says "Yar" after every sentence it will be beyond my control, yet I'll aclimate, yar!
[14:45:07] watergaze: what do you mean you play it in the same way?
[14:45:43] Julio Juliopolis: You still play your best whether surprising things happen or not
[14:45:52] watergaze: the way you talk influence who you are, your awareness, etc...
[14:46:00] Julio Juliopolis: Stuff you control or stuff you don't
[14:46:05] watergaze: a yar at the end of each sentence would have quite an influence
[14:46:15] Julio Juliopolis: heheh
[14:46:25] watergaze: esp. if it comes with changes to your attire, etc, etc
[14:46:46] Julio Juliopolis: I'm sure it would
[14:47:22] Julio Juliopolis: brb
[14:47:28] watergaze: ok
[15:23:21] Julio Juliopolis: back
[15:25:07] watergaze: I was thinking it would be nice if rosy knew he sparked a discussion
[15:25:37] Julio Juliopolis: It would be nice if you added something to his thread
[15:25:45] watergaze: how about the chat log ?
[15:26:02] Julio Juliopolis: That'd be fine.
Thnx rosy for bringing up interesting topics
[13:44:01] Julio Juliopolis: Im trying to figure out what this means “My worry in the case of refugees from attrocity and war is that it is their known social conditioning and experience.
yet when the comparitve internal and external environment is aligned it does not match their surroundings.
For the average rat race european human the refugees of war are arriving on the crest of experience they themselves cannot hope to perceive in terms of own known accord.
The way I see it this creates a pressure, where the average "civilised" European has vast areas of unclaimed power in the fringe expereinces of war, attrocity and death.
whilst the new arrivals have an unforeborne "known" of war attrocity and death."
[13:45:05] watergaze: i dont understand it all either. The middle part is strangely written. “the comparative internal and external environment” - what is that ? . But the other part is clear enough.
[13:47:16] Julio Juliopolis: The first part I believe means he's concerned with the fact that these people have experienced atrocities, and this will affect others they come into contact with.
[13:50:10] watergaze: it is the social conditioning of the refugees to experience violence; hence they will bring this along with them to peaceful parts and experience it there too. That is the worry. Then comes the part about the comparative stuff i dont get (comparative internal and external environment). Then the problem is that this alignment for atrocities does not match their surroundings (which are peaceful). The refugees have experience that the average European does not.
[13:51:38] Julio Juliopolis: I'm with you so far
[13:51:42] watergaze: the fact that there is such a gap of experience creates pressure. The end
[13:52:17] Julio Juliopolis: heh. You ended it right before my questions
[13:52:37] watergaze: that is the end. Questions are not in the text . But do say
[13:53:15] Julio Juliopolis: ok. Well the first question is why does this create a pressure? Or perhaps the first question should be, what is this pressure?
[13:55:43] watergaze: what is the pressure is what creates the pressure. It is not in the text specifically stated, other than 'the difference', the gap in experiences. You should be aware that sometimes this gap creates pressure. Like someone knows something that another does not, sometimes creates pressure. Or someone can do something that another cannot, etc.
[13:56:50] Julio Juliopolis: Does it really though?
[13:56:55] watergaze: yea, sadly it does. Or someone is treated in a way that another is not
[13:57:17] Julio Juliopolis: For example, I know a lot about playing Quake 3, does this create any pressure on you to play the game?
[13:57:44] watergaze: dont bring silly examples, but yea i can imagine there being a person who would fit that. A kid who wants to be good at the game for whatever silly reason but for them important. Pressure is built between people for all kinds of reasons that do not seem very logical. Personality stuff for example. It is why sorcerers live together. the pressure grinds their rough edges. The problem is normal people dont know how to deal with pressure. And even for sorcerers it’s a challenge.
[13:59:45] Julio Juliopolis: Is the pressure created automatically though, or is it something we create?
[14:00:00] watergaze: it is created by our stiffness. Rigidity.
[14:00:08] Julio Juliopolis: (That was what my "silly example" was trying to get at)
[14:00:19] watergaze: lack of fluidity. And people as societies are pretty rigid, set in their ways. And even if these refugees come with hope for living in peace they bring conflict with them (in their perception, awareness, way of life). They will struggle with these things. Maybe not externally, but internally. And we know internal influences stuff. The society in general can accommodate a couple of rough/broken elements without it becoming a problem, but there is a limit to it. We have a set AP position and a couple of strays get aligned with it. Too many strays and the general AP is shifted too. Instead of shifting them they will shift us. But that is not what rosy speaks of, just my aside
[14:03:53] Julio Juliopolis: Isn't it? That's what I thought his worry was
[14:04:01] watergaze: he doesnt speak of APs. He talks of pressure. But it links, hence I said it
[14:04:16] Julio Juliopolis: That these refugees, because of the violence that they've experienced will cause others to experience it
[14:04:19] watergaze: but he doesnt mention it in the excerpt you posted
[14:04:24] Julio Juliopolis: Well, same thing different words
[14:04:28] watergaze: yes. I just said it’s not what he wrote, but its linked. So yea, any more questions?
[14:06:37] Julio Juliopolis: I'm not sure what this means "where the average "civilised" european has vast areas of unclaimed power in the fringe expereinces of war, attrocity and death."... I'm guessing it relates to the unknown, but why does something being unknown make it vast unclaimed power?
[14:07:17] watergaze: it is empowering to have cleared up these aspects of life. If you know how to face these things it empowers you. The people who come from those areas have a certain power and sharpness that we do not. Hence they can get on top of us easily in some areas. Just like these muslims and arabs and whatnot are starting to be dominant in eruopean societies, even though they are minorities.
[14:09:53] Julio Juliopolis: And this is why rosy thinks they're going to be more able to "manifest" stuff?
[14:10:05] watergaze: does he say that? i dont know. gotta ask him
[14:10:49] Julio Juliopolis: Well he talks about whether "civilised" or "barbaric" has more mandate to manifest, and he has some concerns so...
[14:13:15] watergaze: the part about the mandate to manifest was not in the extract you posted
[14:13:58] Julio Juliopolis: It was in the original post. "4) is there any mandate that says the civilised should have priority in manifestation over the barbaric. (other than the need for our planet to survive)."
[14:14:21] watergaze: i dont understand the use of the term mandate here. And of course there is no unspoken law of the universe that says that.
[14:14:52] Julio Juliopolis: Right
[14:14:58] watergaze: and the planet might survive better with the barbaric people ruling
[14:15:17] Julio Juliopolis: I think he's worrying needlessly. Both war and peace have existed for a long time. This isn't the first time veterans of war have found themselves back in peaceful societies
[14:15:55] watergaze: imo it’s different due to culture. Not the war and peace stuff. A country can absorb its veterans. It’s been done many times over
[14:16:13] Julio Juliopolis: And of course there's the higher guru-principal of unbiasedness, and not making the experiences "wrong" by calling them atrocities in the first place
[14:16:34] watergaze: the thing is when veterans who come back to their country, they are still of that country and society
[14:16:57] Julio Juliopolis: True
[14:17:09] watergaze: i dont understand your last
[14:17:34] Julio Juliopolis: You don't?
[14:17:38] watergaze: no
[14:18:09] Julio Juliopolis: hmmm. Well "wrong" is an opinion. And making experiences "wrong" or "bad" is an unhelpful thing to do
[14:19:21] watergaze: i understood that much
[14:19:27] Julio Juliopolis: To clarify You make them that way by forming your opinion that they are that way.
[14:19:33] watergaze: ok, well, why should there be a higher guru principle? Does rosy call it wrong?
[14:20:13] Julio Juliopolis: He uses the word "atrocity", which implies very bad, or very wrong
[14:20:19] watergaze: you see if we want to move forward toward something then what is preventing us or getting us to go backwards is seen as wrong. Nothing wrong with seeing it like that
[14:20:34] Julio Juliopolis: hehe
[14:20:35] watergaze: atrocity is something gruesome and cruel. Not so much 'wrong'. Wiki says: “wicked and cruel act, typically one involving physical violence and injury” or humorous “a highly unpleasant or distasteful object”
[14:21:50] Julio Juliopolis: yep
[14:22:02] watergaze: and it is wicked and cruel what happens in those regions
[14:22:03] Julio Juliopolis: Like "That show was an atrocity"
[14:22:05] watergaze: like in Africa. Cutting off children's ears and noses and mutilating people etc. You can call that an atrocity. People from those regions are sane when they seek refuge in Europe. The problem is they are the people who were around for these situations of atrocity to be born in the first place. It’s kinda bad when it is said like this. At least in the normal perception. But the problem in these regions is that life is not valued in the same way as it is in Europe. And these mind-sets come here and change things for us here. They look at our world with this lack in place and act in our world with this lack in place. Some individuals shift due to what they experienced, I'd think. And some have been not so bound with the way things have been in the society around them. But in sheer numbers, the many many people who come... It is impossible that all those among them are the exceptions
[14:27:01] Julio Juliopolis: Well, certainly they come with a different general AP
[14:27:17] watergaze: yes, but that in itself would not have to be dangerous. The problem is what kind of AP they come with. Sure, if we want to stay the same then any different AP is a problem. But we dont have to stay unchanged. The problem imo is what change it is. In the US lots of people from different societies came by. The Irish flooded them and totally changed the place at one time (after the potato crop failures). I guess they brought violence too….
[14:29:35] Julio Juliopolis: I know they were discriminated against when they came here
[14:29:47] watergaze: well then that was a problem that created the violence
[14:30:17] Julio Juliopolis: There were some Irish mobs, but beyond that I don't know much about their experiences. Or maybe it was just one Irish mob. Anyway they seem to get along in the US just fine now.
I'm trying to reconcile the big picture of these concerns though with the more "sorceric view", as I understand it...
[14:32:48] watergaze: the above is already explained through sorcery. It is not the common view of how things function. If it were, Europe would never have allowed these refugees to come. But go on
[14:33:26] Julio Juliopolis: Which, I would describe as "The universe throws whatever experiences and challenges it wants at us. While we're here we do our best to learn from them. This is just one dream of many and if an experience kills us, we just go elsewhere"
[14:33:47] watergaze: not all bad things happen for a reason. Not all hardships are necessary. We make things harder for ourselves.
[14:34:01] Julio Juliopolis: Thus it really doesn't matter what the challenges are. Whether it be immigrants or whatever.
[14:34:22] watergaze: sometimes we get stuck instead of moving forward . And if you think if doesnt matter what and when it kills us… that is is all the same… what is the point of living to tomorrow? You can just off yourself now and be done with it
[14:35:08] Julio Juliopolis: I could
[14:35:16] watergaze: or could you?
[14:35:30] Julio Juliopolis: Ok, I couldn't... But it's like a soccer game... the end score doesn't matter, or who wins, or when it ends. Just how well you played and if you had the sense to enjoy yourself. You play like your life depends on it, (which in the game of life, it does), but you only play like that because it's more fun (chuckle)
[14:38:52] watergaze: yea but if the game takes place 5 seconds or 50 minutes is quite a difference. Your learning and enjoyment are different
[14:39:21] Julio Juliopolis: It's not that big a diffference when what follows the game is another game of life
[14:39:33] watergaze: and whether you have an opponent that is decent and plays according to the rules or whether they are a-holes and kick you in the knee and whatnot and injure you...
you speak as if you never played a good dame of soccer. Sad, 'tis sad
[14:40:00] Julio Juliopolis: lol. Never with anyone who tried to injure me I admit
[14:40:18] watergaze: the stuff you can learn... in a good game of soccer. The thing is with good games the learning opportunities are gigantic
[14:41:08] Julio Juliopolis: True
[14:41:15] watergaze: and moving on to another game does not give you those lessons. Or gives them on a longer to be learned scale. So leaving the field and the experience of learning is a bad move imo. And same goes to what we were talking about before this analogy.
[14:42:14] Julio Juliopolis: perhaps... but in the game of life we don't have the controls over how long it will last and who we'll play against and what the rules are that we do in a game of soccer
[14:42:37] watergaze: I play in this life in a way like I do on a soccer field. For me it’s all the same – life.
In a game of soccer you dont have that either. Not really.
[14:43:36] Julio Juliopolis: More control than in life. At least in some aspects. You still play it the same way in either case imo. If suddenly a bunch of pirates move into minneapolis, and everyone says "Yar" after every sentence it will be beyond my control, yet I'll aclimate, yar!
[14:45:07] watergaze: what do you mean you play it in the same way?
[14:45:43] Julio Juliopolis: You still play your best whether surprising things happen or not
[14:45:52] watergaze: the way you talk influence who you are, your awareness, etc...
[14:46:00] Julio Juliopolis: Stuff you control or stuff you don't
[14:46:05] watergaze: a yar at the end of each sentence would have quite an influence
[14:46:15] Julio Juliopolis: heheh
[14:46:25] watergaze: esp. if it comes with changes to your attire, etc, etc
[14:46:46] Julio Juliopolis: I'm sure it would
[14:47:22] Julio Juliopolis: brb
[14:47:28] watergaze: ok
[15:23:21] Julio Juliopolis: back
[15:25:07] watergaze: I was thinking it would be nice if rosy knew he sparked a discussion
[15:25:37] Julio Juliopolis: It would be nice if you added something to his thread
[15:25:45] watergaze: how about the chat log ?
[15:26:02] Julio Juliopolis: That'd be fine.