03-26-2014, 12:00 AM
Littlepaw wrote:I felt much the same way as Julio about your post Shamanka. You portray yourself as beyond our reach. Are you going to abandon your initial impulse? I disagree with Julio about the meaning of Kelly Marceaus post. I think that we all have needs in relationships and it is our right to express ourselves if these needs are not met. I cant remember a time I felt the need to protest that my relationship needs are not being met and on the other hand I know women personally who do not have their needs met and It is clear to me that women in general do not seem to have their relationship needs met.
I would like to make the comparison between business relationships and romantic relationships. We might have different values on what constitutes a good business relationship but usually if someone feels they are not getting what they originally signed up to in business don't they have the right to speak up about it? they may even have a case legally. Here is a customer complaint.
'' The list of issues goes on and on, and sadly as I write having had my complaints escalated (my premier manager agreed with all the issues) I am still waiting for a proper response having raised the matter in early December. Their own policy promises to keep you informed!!
I have never experienced such terrible service nor such a lack of interest , I will update when and if I actually get some professional response.''
In my experience working in business customers like this usually have the wrong end of the stick and will say anything to get their message across because they feel they are not being listened to. Here is my issue with what Julio is saying I think women in general feel like they are not listened to. I know it is a sweeping statement but this why I think people like Kelly Marceau are posting. To me Kelly is like a poorly treated customer, she knows our business could be improved but we are all individuals so what Kelly has to say is not going to fit for many people.
I know it happens but I've never been mistreated by a women (except my mother) I have always been the one who needs to treat other better. Julio I think the message here is about being more considerate and hearing people out. What i would like to know is why you feel Kelly Marceau views are hurtful?There's an awful lot I disagree with in what you've written. Before I begin explaining it, I want to tell you the same thing I told Shamanka. I like you and respect your being, even though I disagree with your views. Let me start by pointing out that I never questioned Kelly's right to speak about whatever she wants. I'm a big believer in free speech and would not wish anyone to be censored. I trust you also respect my right to say whatever I want about what she says.
I'd like you to think about your metaphor a bit. What you're doing is putting men in the position of a business that has an obligation to listen to and try to resolve the complaints of people who gave them money for a product and might even have a legal case! To me, this is setting the metaphor up in an extremely biased way. You could have just as easily made women the business, in which case it would be a business demanding people buy products they don't want and insulting them for not doing so. How reasonable would that be?
This next point is going to take a bit to explain. I contend that just because you hear women complain and you don't hear men, this doesn't tell you where the legitimate grievances are. How does the media depict men who complain about women? Or who complain about their issues as men? If a man complains about a woman in his relationship, doesn't he very often have people try to turn it around and blame him? For example, a common sort of conversation might go... "My wife cheated on me", "That sucks, but maybe you should look at what you could have done to better meet her needs and keep her from cheating". I have a hard time imagining someone saying that to a woman complaining about her cheating husband. People don't complain so much when they feel they'll be blamed for doing so.
Additionally, part of men's imprisoning social role is to be the protectors; that doesn't allow room for even acknowledging their own pain, much less talking about it. The anti-role used to keep men in that social role prison is the "wimp" or "whiner". It holds just as much shaming power over men's behavior as "slut" held over women's behavior a hundred years ago when it was an anti-role to their social role. "Wimps" or "whiners" are not treated kindly by society. Because of all these things men tend to just suffer stoicly in silence, like the TV shows us men are supposed to, whatever problems they have. Case in point, a while back I had seen several statistics that women accounted for 75% of all failed suicide attempts. When you look closely at the data of what those attempts were it's pretty obvious that the overwhelming majority were just desperate calls for help; they wanted to be stopped from actually committing suicide. While these actions definitely deserve to be taken seriously and help should be offered to anyone you might find in those situations, the truth is those who actually want to commit suicide usually succeed in doing so. And 7 out of 8 people who skip the cry for help and actually kill themselves are men. They learned to stop asking for help a long time ago.
So, it should be no surprise that men aren't telling you their relationship troubles. Meanwhile, it seems like whenever a woman wants to complain about a man people shove a mic in front of her and turn the TV camera's on. Women, whose social role includes being protected, have learned that the more they complain the more stuff people give them for free. So of course they're going to complain more. But if we look at actions instead of just words, doesn't the much talked about marraige strike men have been on sort of suggest maybe a lot of them aren't so happy with their relationships either even if they don't risk being blamed and shamed by talking to people, including you, about it?
I think there's a pretty good chance if I knew your history I would disagree with you about women never having mistreated you in a relationship. I think there are a combination of psychological things that you do, which I've seen many men do and used to do to a degree myself before I started becoming educated by the side of gender issues you don't ever hear on TV, and these things are skewing your perception. Don't take this as me saying you're stupid, because I don't believe that at all, but rather that there are social pressures that require psychological adaptations by men if they're going to get along in society and most all men do them. I won't get into that here though because that would be better put in a thread of it's own.
Finally, why do I say Kelly's expressions are hurtful? Well, just switch all the gender words in them, (change all instances of men to women and vice versa), and you'll see exactly why I say that. In fact I recommed doing that every time you read anything about men and women. It makes the sexism and the hurtful propaganda more obvious. Those who will argue "well that would be different" either believe that men really aren't equal to women or that something men have done justifies them being treated in a sexist way. I disagree on both counts.
I would like to make the comparison between business relationships and romantic relationships. We might have different values on what constitutes a good business relationship but usually if someone feels they are not getting what they originally signed up to in business don't they have the right to speak up about it? they may even have a case legally. Here is a customer complaint.
'' The list of issues goes on and on, and sadly as I write having had my complaints escalated (my premier manager agreed with all the issues) I am still waiting for a proper response having raised the matter in early December. Their own policy promises to keep you informed!!
I have never experienced such terrible service nor such a lack of interest , I will update when and if I actually get some professional response.''
In my experience working in business customers like this usually have the wrong end of the stick and will say anything to get their message across because they feel they are not being listened to. Here is my issue with what Julio is saying I think women in general feel like they are not listened to. I know it is a sweeping statement but this why I think people like Kelly Marceau are posting. To me Kelly is like a poorly treated customer, she knows our business could be improved but we are all individuals so what Kelly has to say is not going to fit for many people.
I know it happens but I've never been mistreated by a women (except my mother) I have always been the one who needs to treat other better. Julio I think the message here is about being more considerate and hearing people out. What i would like to know is why you feel Kelly Marceau views are hurtful?There's an awful lot I disagree with in what you've written. Before I begin explaining it, I want to tell you the same thing I told Shamanka. I like you and respect your being, even though I disagree with your views. Let me start by pointing out that I never questioned Kelly's right to speak about whatever she wants. I'm a big believer in free speech and would not wish anyone to be censored. I trust you also respect my right to say whatever I want about what she says.
I'd like you to think about your metaphor a bit. What you're doing is putting men in the position of a business that has an obligation to listen to and try to resolve the complaints of people who gave them money for a product and might even have a legal case! To me, this is setting the metaphor up in an extremely biased way. You could have just as easily made women the business, in which case it would be a business demanding people buy products they don't want and insulting them for not doing so. How reasonable would that be?
This next point is going to take a bit to explain. I contend that just because you hear women complain and you don't hear men, this doesn't tell you where the legitimate grievances are. How does the media depict men who complain about women? Or who complain about their issues as men? If a man complains about a woman in his relationship, doesn't he very often have people try to turn it around and blame him? For example, a common sort of conversation might go... "My wife cheated on me", "That sucks, but maybe you should look at what you could have done to better meet her needs and keep her from cheating". I have a hard time imagining someone saying that to a woman complaining about her cheating husband. People don't complain so much when they feel they'll be blamed for doing so.
Additionally, part of men's imprisoning social role is to be the protectors; that doesn't allow room for even acknowledging their own pain, much less talking about it. The anti-role used to keep men in that social role prison is the "wimp" or "whiner". It holds just as much shaming power over men's behavior as "slut" held over women's behavior a hundred years ago when it was an anti-role to their social role. "Wimps" or "whiners" are not treated kindly by society. Because of all these things men tend to just suffer stoicly in silence, like the TV shows us men are supposed to, whatever problems they have. Case in point, a while back I had seen several statistics that women accounted for 75% of all failed suicide attempts. When you look closely at the data of what those attempts were it's pretty obvious that the overwhelming majority were just desperate calls for help; they wanted to be stopped from actually committing suicide. While these actions definitely deserve to be taken seriously and help should be offered to anyone you might find in those situations, the truth is those who actually want to commit suicide usually succeed in doing so. And 7 out of 8 people who skip the cry for help and actually kill themselves are men. They learned to stop asking for help a long time ago.
So, it should be no surprise that men aren't telling you their relationship troubles. Meanwhile, it seems like whenever a woman wants to complain about a man people shove a mic in front of her and turn the TV camera's on. Women, whose social role includes being protected, have learned that the more they complain the more stuff people give them for free. So of course they're going to complain more. But if we look at actions instead of just words, doesn't the much talked about marraige strike men have been on sort of suggest maybe a lot of them aren't so happy with their relationships either even if they don't risk being blamed and shamed by talking to people, including you, about it?
I think there's a pretty good chance if I knew your history I would disagree with you about women never having mistreated you in a relationship. I think there are a combination of psychological things that you do, which I've seen many men do and used to do to a degree myself before I started becoming educated by the side of gender issues you don't ever hear on TV, and these things are skewing your perception. Don't take this as me saying you're stupid, because I don't believe that at all, but rather that there are social pressures that require psychological adaptations by men if they're going to get along in society and most all men do them. I won't get into that here though because that would be better put in a thread of it's own.
Finally, why do I say Kelly's expressions are hurtful? Well, just switch all the gender words in them, (change all instances of men to women and vice versa), and you'll see exactly why I say that. In fact I recommed doing that every time you read anything about men and women. It makes the sexism and the hurtful propaganda more obvious. Those who will argue "well that would be different" either believe that men really aren't equal to women or that something men have done justifies them being treated in a sexist way. I disagree on both counts.