03-27-2014, 12:00 AM
Hi Julio, I like and respect you too and apologize in advance if my wording in this thread seems like i'm trying to push your buttons. I am hoping we are both copper headed enough to head butt a few times and not get any permanent damage : ) RAMJulio Juliopolis wrote:There's an awful lot I disagree with in what you've written. Before I begin explaining it, I want to tell you the same thing I told Shamanka. I like you and respect your being, even though I disagree with your views. Let me start by pointing out that I never questioned Kelly's right to speak about whatever she wants. I'm a big believer in free speech and would not wish anyone to be censored. I trust you also respect my right to say whatever I want about what she says.Maybe I have not understood what was written in an earlier post so maybe you can clarify what '' You go girl! I mean that. Go! Go away! Shoo! You ain't wanted here. Git! '' means? I took this to mean that you do not want to hear views like Kelly's. I interpret the meaning that she should take her views somewhere else? I'd like you to think about your metaphor a bit. What you're doing is putting men in the position of a business that has an obligation to listen to and try to resolve the complaints of people who gave them money for a product and might even have a legal case! To me, this is setting the metaphor up in an extremely biased way. You could have just as easily made women the business, in which case it would be a business demanding people buy products they don't want and insulting them for not doing so. How reasonable would that be?I'd like to stand by my comparison. Business today is not gender specific with success and failures on both sides. Regardless of males or females being proprietors or customers I believe the ideal of good business is a cooperative exchange between partners and associates. The subject of grievances within business is as vast and multifaceted as in romantic relationships and at the end of the day a letter of complaint should be acknowledged in a polite timely manner to keep those pesky customers happy.This next point is going to take a bit to explain. I contend that just because you hear women complain and you don't hear men, this doesn't tell you where the legitimate grievances are. How does the media depict men who complain about women? Or who complain about their issues as men? If a man complains about a woman in his relationship, doesn't he very often have people try to turn it around and blame him? For example, a common sort of conversation might go... "My wife cheated on me", "That sucks, but maybe you should look at what you could have done to better meet her needs and keep her from cheating". I have a hard time imagining someone saying that to a woman complaining about her cheating husband. People don't complain so much when they feel they'll be blamed for doing so.hmmm, isn't a legitimate grievance one that is voiced? It surely is a problem if men are made to feel like they are to keep their grievances to themselves but is it right to condemn women for voicing theirs?Additionally, part of men's imprisoning social role is to be the protectors; that doesn't allow room for even acknowledging their own pain, much less talking about it. The anti-role used to keep men in that social role prison is the "wimp" or "whiner". It holds just as much shaming power over men's behavior as "slut" held over women's behavior a hundred years ago when it was an anti-role to their social role. "Wimps" or "whiners" are not treated kindly by society. Because of all these things men tend to just suffer stoicly in silence, like the TV shows us men are supposed to, whatever problems they have. Case in point, a while back I had seen several statistics that women accounted for 75% of all failed suicide attempts. When you look closely at the data of what those attempts were it's pretty obvious that the overwhelming majority were just desperate calls for help; they wanted to be stopped from actually committing suicide. While these actions definitely deserve to be taken seriously and help should be offered to anyone you might find in those situations, the truth is those who actually want to commit suicide usually succeed in doing so. And 7 out of 8 people who skip the cry for help and actually kill themselves are men. They learned to stop asking for help a long time ago.
So, it should be no surprise that men aren't telling you their relationship troubles. Meanwhile, it seems like whenever a woman wants to complain about a man people shove a mic in front of her and turn the TV camera's on. Women, whose social role includes being protected, have learned that the more they complain the more stuff people give them for free. So of course they're going to complain more. But if we look at actions instead of just words, doesn't the much talked about marraige strike men have been on sort of suggest maybe a lot of them aren't so happy with their relationships either even if they don't risk being blamed and shamed by talking to people, including you, about it?I think there's a pretty good chance if I knew your history I would disagree with you about women never having mistreated you in a relationship. I think there are a combination of psychological things that you do, which I've seen many men do and used to do to a degree myself before I started becoming educated by the side of gender issues you don't ever hear on TV, and these things are skewing your perception. Don't take this as me saying you're stupid, because I don't believe that at all, but rather that there are social pressures that require psychological adaptations by men if they're going to get along in society and most all men do them. I won't get into that here though because that would be better put in a thread of it's own.
Finally, why do I say Kelly's expressions are hurtful? Well, just switch all the gender words in them, (change all instances of men to women and vice versa), and you'll see exactly why I say that. In fact I recommed doing that every time you read anything about men and women. It makes the sexism and the hurtful propaganda more obvious. Those who will argue "well that would be different" either believe that men really aren't equal to women or that something men have done justifies them being treated in a sexist way. I disagree on both counts.Personal History is an important concept on the Warriors path. We are in the area of not just how we are treated by others but what we believe about ourselves, our self image, what feel we are worth and what we deserve. Our own perception of the world plays the largest part in what meaning we give to other peoples behavior. I was in love with a girl a while ago. I used to visit her, spend time with her, give her my undivided attention. A friend of mine believed that she was leading me on and treated me badly which is of course true. The twist however is that I wanted her to lead me on and who would not like a devoted person like me hanging on her every move? Subsequently I have learned that I made her nervous. She saw me as an overwhelming character who she did not know how to handle. One day after a long silence I told her that I loved her spontaneously, I definitely did not plan too. We sat closely on the bed, it was an intense moment and I could hardly look at her. I got up and left. The next day we spoke on the phone and I told her that I did not want to see her for a while. Cazy huh! I believed that she had rejected me and acted this part to perfection. I insistently believed that she did not, could not love me back, not because of her but because of me. My History has written that she was a **** for leading me on and rejecting me, but personal History is written by what we think happened. Personal History changes when our true feelings come to light. I did not even know I though she was a ****, the reality is that she has only ever been nice to me but like my teacher has said on many occasions if you cannot love yourself who else will? You have raised some really interesting points. I had no idea about the suicide stats in men and women. I know that our social climate gives us limiting beliefs and that this extends to men equally as women and that men suffer as much as women albeit in different ways. It seems to me like you see posts from people like kelly as nothing more than an attack on men. I take them as an opportunity for me to look at my behavior and see if any of what is said rings true. Funnily enough the one thing I have realized in the last few years is that I am more in control than I think and really do need to man up, for me admitting this is half the battle.Lastly I took your recommendation and selected three lines at random from Shamankas 1st post. Let me put it to you bluntly, when you are not dealing with a Consciously Awake man you are dealing with a crazy bastard, men with emotional problems and severe insecurity issues.Consciously Awake men are not your average men. They will not allow fear to prohibit them from looking into the fires of their own souls and own their emotional triggers, past wounds, flaws, mistakes, or pain.Some Women like to call men complainers, bastards, ignorant, wankers, idiots and whatever else you can muster, but let me be the first to tell you Mens feelings have an origin. men aren’t bastards or ignorant for no reason. Women are not crazy either. Women are tired of dealing with emotional and mental morons we can’t grow a relationship with.
So, it should be no surprise that men aren't telling you their relationship troubles. Meanwhile, it seems like whenever a woman wants to complain about a man people shove a mic in front of her and turn the TV camera's on. Women, whose social role includes being protected, have learned that the more they complain the more stuff people give them for free. So of course they're going to complain more. But if we look at actions instead of just words, doesn't the much talked about marraige strike men have been on sort of suggest maybe a lot of them aren't so happy with their relationships either even if they don't risk being blamed and shamed by talking to people, including you, about it?I think there's a pretty good chance if I knew your history I would disagree with you about women never having mistreated you in a relationship. I think there are a combination of psychological things that you do, which I've seen many men do and used to do to a degree myself before I started becoming educated by the side of gender issues you don't ever hear on TV, and these things are skewing your perception. Don't take this as me saying you're stupid, because I don't believe that at all, but rather that there are social pressures that require psychological adaptations by men if they're going to get along in society and most all men do them. I won't get into that here though because that would be better put in a thread of it's own.
Finally, why do I say Kelly's expressions are hurtful? Well, just switch all the gender words in them, (change all instances of men to women and vice versa), and you'll see exactly why I say that. In fact I recommed doing that every time you read anything about men and women. It makes the sexism and the hurtful propaganda more obvious. Those who will argue "well that would be different" either believe that men really aren't equal to women or that something men have done justifies them being treated in a sexist way. I disagree on both counts.Personal History is an important concept on the Warriors path. We are in the area of not just how we are treated by others but what we believe about ourselves, our self image, what feel we are worth and what we deserve. Our own perception of the world plays the largest part in what meaning we give to other peoples behavior. I was in love with a girl a while ago. I used to visit her, spend time with her, give her my undivided attention. A friend of mine believed that she was leading me on and treated me badly which is of course true. The twist however is that I wanted her to lead me on and who would not like a devoted person like me hanging on her every move? Subsequently I have learned that I made her nervous. She saw me as an overwhelming character who she did not know how to handle. One day after a long silence I told her that I loved her spontaneously, I definitely did not plan too. We sat closely on the bed, it was an intense moment and I could hardly look at her. I got up and left. The next day we spoke on the phone and I told her that I did not want to see her for a while. Cazy huh! I believed that she had rejected me and acted this part to perfection. I insistently believed that she did not, could not love me back, not because of her but because of me. My History has written that she was a **** for leading me on and rejecting me, but personal History is written by what we think happened. Personal History changes when our true feelings come to light. I did not even know I though she was a ****, the reality is that she has only ever been nice to me but like my teacher has said on many occasions if you cannot love yourself who else will? You have raised some really interesting points. I had no idea about the suicide stats in men and women. I know that our social climate gives us limiting beliefs and that this extends to men equally as women and that men suffer as much as women albeit in different ways. It seems to me like you see posts from people like kelly as nothing more than an attack on men. I take them as an opportunity for me to look at my behavior and see if any of what is said rings true. Funnily enough the one thing I have realized in the last few years is that I am more in control than I think and really do need to man up, for me admitting this is half the battle.Lastly I took your recommendation and selected three lines at random from Shamankas 1st post. Let me put it to you bluntly, when you are not dealing with a Consciously Awake man you are dealing with a crazy bastard, men with emotional problems and severe insecurity issues.Consciously Awake men are not your average men. They will not allow fear to prohibit them from looking into the fires of their own souls and own their emotional triggers, past wounds, flaws, mistakes, or pain.Some Women like to call men complainers, bastards, ignorant, wankers, idiots and whatever else you can muster, but let me be the first to tell you Mens feelings have an origin. men aren’t bastards or ignorant for no reason. Women are not crazy either. Women are tired of dealing with emotional and mental morons we can’t grow a relationship with.