06-03-2011, 12:00 AM
Nu Lang wrote:
Lot of good points here Nu Lang.
Yes its different, a different perspective and one learns to accept it, even joyfully as each instance is a reminder the world is magical, not logical.
Logic can be a drag. At first its fun, when you are a kid, because logic gives you control. Like I remember when I learned to tie my shoes. I remember practicing and being a bit frustrated but determined. Then once I got the bow to come out perfectly, and it looked like other people's did, I was ecstatic. Now I can tie my own shoes! A freedom. And then other things followed, linear procedures I learned to do. So we invest trust and emotion in logic during our childhood, which makes it hard to let go of it later. Except a sorcerer WANTS to let it go, so magic-events are the new 'shoe laces'. The old shoes, no longer interest, ...yeah I can tie them, big deal. I often just leave then tied and then slip them on again next time, lol, so as to not have to tie them.
I get a little confused about what is meant by logic. It reminds me of math but though math uses logic, logic does not mean math. To me it was always my last resort. I can use math if I have to but I can also find the same answers in other ways.
I was at work the other day and they were cutting down a rotten tree. We were discussing where we thought the tree would reach when it fell. would it reach to where the building stood nearby or would it fall short? So the problem was how tall was the tree?
One guy wanted to measure the height of the tree which was impossible without a very tall ladder.
Another held his arm up and pointed to the top of the tree at a 45 degree angle and backed up until his finger pointed exactly to the top of the tree, still being held at 45 degrees. However far he was from the center of the tree trunk would be the height of the tree.
I mentioned that the way one guy back in the 18th century measured the height of the Great pyramid was to put a stick into the ground straight up and down. Then wait until the time of day when the length of the shadow of the stick equaled the height of the stick. Now measure the shadow of the pyramid and you know the exact height of the tree or pyramid or whatever.
All three methods would enable you to precisely measure the tree. All three methods involve logic. If this , then that, then that.
My point with A, B, C is that a sorcerer has a greater reference than an average man because of his experience or theory of the world.
A man of knowledge has a greater reference than either a sorcerer or an average man.
A child many times has a greater reference than an average adult because they have not yet learned to discount the unseen elements of existence.
One thing I wanted to but forgot to add last post is a quote from Paul.
1co 2:13
Which things also we speak, not in the words which man's wisdom teacheth, but which the Holy Ghost teacheth; comparing spiritual things with spiritual.
Unless our frame of reference includes something of what Paul refers to here as Spiritual we cannot use the logic that he refers to as "comparing spiritual things to spiritual."
But the new options beckon. A good example, though I could give more, is when I made that PM and it became a post in IL. If I were overly logical, such event would upset me. It would be a C minus the A and B. My mind would be afraid of not being able to explain it and thus would mean I really don't understand/control my world as I thought.
The next step would be to try to find a cause..."I really was in IL, I just thought I was in my PM, but that does not explain how the post later disappeared after i saw it???...well maybe I only think I saw it. That must be it, or maybe it was a computer glitch..."
Trying to find cause. If one succeeds in finding a cause, even if its only in their mind, they put themselves back in the 'normal' world. Some prefer this, its a form of control. Logic gives us a sense of control, again from childhood and it was our child mind that embraced it, so embraced it from the magical resonance of child-like wonder.
The trick is to just switch that wonder and to also know that sorcery is not about locating the cause, the cause is somewhat always a mystery. In fact the world was forever this way we just forgot...the wonder. For example, if you put a seed in soil and water it, it can grow into a tree. But we don't know how. We cannot make our own seed, imbue it with life force, the life force ..force...is a mystery. But it can be harnessed.
A sorcerer can intend something. I imagine a really powerful sorcerer could intend a tree to be in a place there was no tree, and then its just there the next day. It IS possible. But the only way to know this is to experience something along these lines happen. Until it happens, one can easily doubt and deny it. .."the sorcerer is a trickster, snuck in and planted a tree in middle of the night".
The implications of the other possibility overwhelm many. "you mean intent can be a cause(B) with an effect ©?" Just intending something? That means reality is malleable, like clay and we are sculptors in a sense in that we are creatures of intent. What happens is ap shifts. And we knwo there's limitless possibilities in that. (A) is forever the mystery, the unknowable, God.
Some know this about sorcery, believe its real.. but say..."well that's a trap. Sorcery and doing such things becomes obsessions. One gets fixed on controlling reality then for their own means."
Its not like that actually. Some do go to the dark arts. But many of us don't and can't...it would destroy us to go against our destiny. A person destined to be a black magician will be given such opportunity (for a while at least), one without such destiny will not. Many of us are linked to the nagual and thus guided by such intent. Lets say we do use our power against another in a self serving way. We can be harmed back (immediately sometimes) as a result. When power has determined a certain path for us, it will be reinforced as we learn to let go of desire to control for self purpose. So some may say, "then power is like God, overseeing us." I have found this to be true yes, there is an intelligence of some kind that responds to us and our intent. It does not always give us what we want, so we learn to see what it wants for us. This is called following Spirit's indications. We were born into this destiny. Not only is following it imperative, we want to follow such a path as its what our heart wants naturally.
A mystic or a man of knowledge is searching for the "Causless Cause" or "First Cause" as it is sometimes called.
Even if one has no chance of ever finding it, I think was how Don Juan worded it.
Just because one learned to harness sorcery does not automatically mean they then think of their self and what to gain. Often, harnessing sorcery makes one consider how it can be used to liberate from the world here, from anything fixed, which is deeply engrossed in self. Regular man, not sorcerers, are the most selfish. Thats why the rainforest it being ruined, the water and air polluted, animals becoming extinct and then scientists hired to tell everyone its not really happening or its not as bad as it sounds and progress is most important...this is selfishness and worse then any black magic because its done on such a mass level and so many people support it and those who don't are minorities and have less voice as a result.
Sorcery is a way out of this dead end. If one tried to use sorcery to go after oil companies, for example, such a person may see that their harmful intent backfires. Because that is harmful intent. Yes, oil companies cause many ills, but fighting fire with fire has consequences. So one learns to let go of this world. Let go of the good/evil struggle, Bob used the tree of knowledge example..knowledge of good and evil. Step beyond that to tree of life,...possibilities, endless, eternal possibilities. Non-linear, non-logical, real and also useable...our intent can harness it,this freedom, this assembling new position and this new awareness of reality and reality is not fixed by any means, so to be comfortable with this understanding.
A sorcerer is fascinated. Awed by his/her existence. Strives to be free of the cares and concerns that plague common man, free of the mentality that rules common man. A sorcerer can do or be virtually anything, yet many choose to be free. It doesn't happen over night of course, its the result of powers impact in their life. Showing them the only way to not suffer certain consequences is to not invest in selfhood intent. To acquiescence to Spirit, and follow it. To let one be a self for Spirit. Still a self of course...we don't stop living or avoid life, still enjoy it even, more... its just our self is not as it appears.
I see reality as more of a rainbow type of thing. One thing bleeds into another and another gradually. There are many shades of purple between red and blue.
I am not so interested in the bodies or vehicles as I am the awarenesses. -Bob
Agree!A lot of what you are saying here has to do with whether or not to use magic or powers. And what to use them for. These are big questions. Intent has a lot to do with it of course and that is personal. Don Juan used it to instruct Carlos and Jesus used miracles to help people and instruct as did the Apostles after him. So did my teacher.
Lot of good points here Nu Lang.
Yes its different, a different perspective and one learns to accept it, even joyfully as each instance is a reminder the world is magical, not logical.
Logic can be a drag. At first its fun, when you are a kid, because logic gives you control. Like I remember when I learned to tie my shoes. I remember practicing and being a bit frustrated but determined. Then once I got the bow to come out perfectly, and it looked like other people's did, I was ecstatic. Now I can tie my own shoes! A freedom. And then other things followed, linear procedures I learned to do. So we invest trust and emotion in logic during our childhood, which makes it hard to let go of it later. Except a sorcerer WANTS to let it go, so magic-events are the new 'shoe laces'. The old shoes, no longer interest, ...yeah I can tie them, big deal. I often just leave then tied and then slip them on again next time, lol, so as to not have to tie them.
I get a little confused about what is meant by logic. It reminds me of math but though math uses logic, logic does not mean math. To me it was always my last resort. I can use math if I have to but I can also find the same answers in other ways.
I was at work the other day and they were cutting down a rotten tree. We were discussing where we thought the tree would reach when it fell. would it reach to where the building stood nearby or would it fall short? So the problem was how tall was the tree?
One guy wanted to measure the height of the tree which was impossible without a very tall ladder.
Another held his arm up and pointed to the top of the tree at a 45 degree angle and backed up until his finger pointed exactly to the top of the tree, still being held at 45 degrees. However far he was from the center of the tree trunk would be the height of the tree.
I mentioned that the way one guy back in the 18th century measured the height of the Great pyramid was to put a stick into the ground straight up and down. Then wait until the time of day when the length of the shadow of the stick equaled the height of the stick. Now measure the shadow of the pyramid and you know the exact height of the tree or pyramid or whatever.
All three methods would enable you to precisely measure the tree. All three methods involve logic. If this , then that, then that.
My point with A, B, C is that a sorcerer has a greater reference than an average man because of his experience or theory of the world.
A man of knowledge has a greater reference than either a sorcerer or an average man.
A child many times has a greater reference than an average adult because they have not yet learned to discount the unseen elements of existence.
One thing I wanted to but forgot to add last post is a quote from Paul.
1co 2:13
Which things also we speak, not in the words which man's wisdom teacheth, but which the Holy Ghost teacheth; comparing spiritual things with spiritual.
Unless our frame of reference includes something of what Paul refers to here as Spiritual we cannot use the logic that he refers to as "comparing spiritual things to spiritual."
But the new options beckon. A good example, though I could give more, is when I made that PM and it became a post in IL. If I were overly logical, such event would upset me. It would be a C minus the A and B. My mind would be afraid of not being able to explain it and thus would mean I really don't understand/control my world as I thought.
The next step would be to try to find a cause..."I really was in IL, I just thought I was in my PM, but that does not explain how the post later disappeared after i saw it???...well maybe I only think I saw it. That must be it, or maybe it was a computer glitch..."
Trying to find cause. If one succeeds in finding a cause, even if its only in their mind, they put themselves back in the 'normal' world. Some prefer this, its a form of control. Logic gives us a sense of control, again from childhood and it was our child mind that embraced it, so embraced it from the magical resonance of child-like wonder.
The trick is to just switch that wonder and to also know that sorcery is not about locating the cause, the cause is somewhat always a mystery. In fact the world was forever this way we just forgot...the wonder. For example, if you put a seed in soil and water it, it can grow into a tree. But we don't know how. We cannot make our own seed, imbue it with life force, the life force ..force...is a mystery. But it can be harnessed.
A sorcerer can intend something. I imagine a really powerful sorcerer could intend a tree to be in a place there was no tree, and then its just there the next day. It IS possible. But the only way to know this is to experience something along these lines happen. Until it happens, one can easily doubt and deny it. .."the sorcerer is a trickster, snuck in and planted a tree in middle of the night".
The implications of the other possibility overwhelm many. "you mean intent can be a cause(B) with an effect ©?" Just intending something? That means reality is malleable, like clay and we are sculptors in a sense in that we are creatures of intent. What happens is ap shifts. And we knwo there's limitless possibilities in that. (A) is forever the mystery, the unknowable, God.
Some know this about sorcery, believe its real.. but say..."well that's a trap. Sorcery and doing such things becomes obsessions. One gets fixed on controlling reality then for their own means."
Its not like that actually. Some do go to the dark arts. But many of us don't and can't...it would destroy us to go against our destiny. A person destined to be a black magician will be given such opportunity (for a while at least), one without such destiny will not. Many of us are linked to the nagual and thus guided by such intent. Lets say we do use our power against another in a self serving way. We can be harmed back (immediately sometimes) as a result. When power has determined a certain path for us, it will be reinforced as we learn to let go of desire to control for self purpose. So some may say, "then power is like God, overseeing us." I have found this to be true yes, there is an intelligence of some kind that responds to us and our intent. It does not always give us what we want, so we learn to see what it wants for us. This is called following Spirit's indications. We were born into this destiny. Not only is following it imperative, we want to follow such a path as its what our heart wants naturally.
A mystic or a man of knowledge is searching for the "Causless Cause" or "First Cause" as it is sometimes called.
Even if one has no chance of ever finding it, I think was how Don Juan worded it.
Just because one learned to harness sorcery does not automatically mean they then think of their self and what to gain. Often, harnessing sorcery makes one consider how it can be used to liberate from the world here, from anything fixed, which is deeply engrossed in self. Regular man, not sorcerers, are the most selfish. Thats why the rainforest it being ruined, the water and air polluted, animals becoming extinct and then scientists hired to tell everyone its not really happening or its not as bad as it sounds and progress is most important...this is selfishness and worse then any black magic because its done on such a mass level and so many people support it and those who don't are minorities and have less voice as a result.
Sorcery is a way out of this dead end. If one tried to use sorcery to go after oil companies, for example, such a person may see that their harmful intent backfires. Because that is harmful intent. Yes, oil companies cause many ills, but fighting fire with fire has consequences. So one learns to let go of this world. Let go of the good/evil struggle, Bob used the tree of knowledge example..knowledge of good and evil. Step beyond that to tree of life,...possibilities, endless, eternal possibilities. Non-linear, non-logical, real and also useable...our intent can harness it,this freedom, this assembling new position and this new awareness of reality and reality is not fixed by any means, so to be comfortable with this understanding.
A sorcerer is fascinated. Awed by his/her existence. Strives to be free of the cares and concerns that plague common man, free of the mentality that rules common man. A sorcerer can do or be virtually anything, yet many choose to be free. It doesn't happen over night of course, its the result of powers impact in their life. Showing them the only way to not suffer certain consequences is to not invest in selfhood intent. To acquiescence to Spirit, and follow it. To let one be a self for Spirit. Still a self of course...we don't stop living or avoid life, still enjoy it even, more... its just our self is not as it appears.
I see reality as more of a rainbow type of thing. One thing bleeds into another and another gradually. There are many shades of purple between red and blue.
I am not so interested in the bodies or vehicles as I am the awarenesses. -Bob
Agree!A lot of what you are saying here has to do with whether or not to use magic or powers. And what to use them for. These are big questions. Intent has a lot to do with it of course and that is personal. Don Juan used it to instruct Carlos and Jesus used miracles to help people and instruct as did the Apostles after him. So did my teacher.