Thunderbeings

[Pixie Dust]

Watergaze said: 

I know that sometimes tearing is necessary. I am not against tearing in those cases. What is important to me is that my self-importance does not decide when this is necessary but something else inside me that I am connected with That Spirit etc guides me in this. Why? Because I trust Spirit more than I trust my self-importance . It is quite important to me that I don't cut off a foot (just because I can) when it has a blue toe (due to bumping into something etc.).
I agree.  Except determining whether an idea, impulse, or emotion is originating from Spirit or from Self (self-importance) can be challenging.  Spirit isn't necessarily passive and sometimes people need to be "punched in the face" to send them on a new trajectory.  Like Wolf's banning of people without an explanation...sometimes that can be Spirit's method of allowing a person to self-stalk.  For some, the cutting off of the foot due to stubbing ones toe is the best long-term plan.  Maybe not an ideal short term plan, but it can play a larger role later in time.  Maybe it allows the person to limit impulsive decision making in the long-term by allowing the experience earlier in life when the consequences are much smaller.  The easiest example I know of is drugs.  I tried smoking cigarettes in middle school to figure out what the appeal was.  I tried them then discovered it was lame (for me), and never smoked another cigarette again.  The temptation was removed because I had experienced it.  Other people become addicted as a result of their initial curiosity.  Everyone is different and sometimes doing dumb things gets it out of our systems and other times it leads to a lifelong addiction; the point is, we can't tell if Spirit sets us up for success or failure until more time has passed.  In some scenarios cutting off ones foot could be the correct course of action even if it is misunderstood in the moment.  In other scenarios it could be the dumbest idea we've ever held.  


I do not know if Kris' method is what we speak of really (i have not seen him tear down anyone's ego), but let's say he tries for this. It can happen that he can do a lot of damage and stop someone flat on their path. It might take this person years to get moving again. The worst I do with my preferred method is that I do nothing. The person is, in effect, unaffected. Plus just because I prefer something doesn't mean it is the only tool in my tool box. But it is better to start gently and then if strength is needed you can always add that later. Why not allow the person to first move on their own and do as much of their own stuff as they can? Nevertheless, even with not preferring these strong forceful methods, like I said, I still have sometimes pretty strong effect on a person. Even when I do not intend to have such a strong effect. In this sense, I find that is better of my own accord. If needed, Spirit has ways. 
I've seen Kris try, but his success isn't what's in question.  It's just his preferred method.  If he were successful, as you've said he would do a lot of damage to limit the progress for another (or, as seen from his perspective, it could act as a catalyst for them).  I've seen the impact Kris has exerted on relationships between people and it's impressive.  Maybe not positive, but it's impressive.  I've watched him take two very close friends and become the wedge between those people.  Now, one could argue that had nothing to do with Kris--and that could be true.  But we are not only ourselves, but an arrangement of relationships we have with many people.  Kris was a feature (a catalyst) of many relationships and he was able to bring to light the various weak points.  No one knows of his reasons for doing this--except him.  So we can't say that his actions were or were not Spirit helping us to better ourselves.  If we use our experiences to propel us forward then sure, his insights were from Spirit.  If we use our experiences to hinder ourselves then maybe his insights weren't from Spirit.  Perhaps Spirit isn't a particular outcome or intent but our interpretation (and subsequent application) of our experiences.  How we decide what is from Spirit or not can't be found through another--it is found within and how we internalize what's brought to us.  Hence, it doesn't matter what Kris does, but instead it is our response to what Kris does that is of importance.  


It's why I've never yelled at Wolf.  He is not the problem.  It is my attitude about him that is the problem.  Just like Kris was never the problem.  Billy was never the problem.  Kao was never the problem.  Serloco was never the problem.  It was always my attitude about others that was the problem.  Therefore these people are not to blame.  It is me who I should blame.  This approach removes the power from "them" and returns the control over to ourselves.  What can we do differently to become successful.  Spirit is what is within, not without.  Hence, I don't worry whether these people are moving with Spirit.  That is irrelevant and something I can never control or verify.  I worry about whether Spirit moves through me.  

I wonder sometimes if it's not better to then 'just' be fair. Other than a student thinking why does the other student get what they need but not me? 
I agree  I don't have an answer for this either.  I try to learn the various spirits of everyone but I have my favorites.  I give more attention and time to those favorites.  Many of my favorites are people who have demonstrated a greater capacity for kindness and/or ability to adapt.  Some people favor money and so their favorites are rich people.  Some go for power.  Everyone has favorites.  When it comes to children in classrooms, even there I have my favorites and again it's based on their kindness and adaptability.  Why?  Because those will always be the people who support my vision for the world.  I don't provide the same degree of effort for cruel personalities because energy goes where attention flows.  I don't want to foster that type of world.  Hence, favorites are born.  Is it right?  Generally, maybe not right.  Yet it's the right approach for me so that's what I do.  I reward my favorites and spend very little energy on the things that fall outside of them.  

I do not understand why you mention miscommunication. Please elaborate on that point you are making . Why would there be miscommunication? Do you mean with those people or here with you? Or?
Maybe an example would be easier.  Let's say Lucy, from the series "I Love Lucy", doesn't know that everything she's involved with goes awry.  Maybe she doesn't understand the impact she has on her best friend Ethel and her husband Ricky.  If she can't even understand herself, she won't understand her impact, and thus her relationships with others will experience miscommunication.  So in general if we don't take the time to understand ourselves in a basic way, we will find ourselves in numerous misunderstandings.  


Pixie wrote wrote:Again, you don't know too little to make decisions regarding how your awareness can be utilized.
Did you mean to say I know too little to make decisions? Cause the negative in that sentence does not make as much sense hehe
I was responding to you when you said: 

I am not going to go into the field of Spirit and say that this or that person should not have fallen or that this or that person should - it is not my place. Same with what I expressed about providing a link to someone. But it can be that I hope and wish that it happens for someone close and I think Spirit hears that too and my plea might make a difference who kows .[/color]

All one does is allows oneself to be utilized. I know too little to make these decisions.
Now, I am getting something closer to what I wanted and it is a lot less intrusive. Though of course it is years later. But back then people were probably just not ready for it.

One could say that the intent or setting that I want is also respected to a big degree but it is not the only thing that is respected. Other things are taken into account that I myself at that time could not know. This is why it is better to not act out of one's own ego/self-importance but to go with Spirit.
Were people not ready for it or were you not ready for it?  Yes, the teacher must move at a pace comfortable for the class, but also the teacher can only teach what they themselves understand.  Sometimes we have to slow down to accommodate the students, but at the same time we need to slow down to develop a method to understand our students well enough to reach them.  Hence, a skilled teacher who is genuinely interested in the students will not think "the student is not ready".  A good teacher asks, "What can I change to better support the student."  For really challenging students the teacher might even say, "Okay, so this student won't be a mathematician, but they will make a fabulous writer."  Students are always ready, just maybe not ready for what you're trying to teach.  Therefore, while you wait for that moment it is wiser to adapt to the student and say that it is the teacher who is not ready.  This approach makes both the teacher and the student more successful than saying, "The student is not ready."  


I do not think Kris tore off people's ego (and I wonder if he himself is without an ego, but I do wish it for him if that was /is his aim). I mean, he went hardest on Sen. Did he tear off his ego? . He maybe tried to do that... i dunno...

I think Kris attempted to tear off egos.  Whether or not he did, I'm uncertain.  I like to think he tore off mine a couple times.  Meeting him in person was the most successful ego tearing  People make a lot more sense when you engage them in multiple settings.  In person I could see and feel him with such a greater intensity--like a purer understanding than the other exchanges I've had with him.  He is very kind and is genuinely doing the best he can with what he's been given this lifetime.  When we talk about fairness with people, I like the think of Kris.  For someone like you, WG, you have a very nice upbringing.  Your upbringing may not be ideal, but it is far more decent than many I've known.  Hence, I have higher expectations from you and I expect you to be a nice person.  There is no reason for you to be an ugly person (you weren't serially raped, didn't have a mom who was a prostitute, didn't suffer from a drug addiction, etc).  I don't know everything about Kris, but I know enough to know that he's had a very challenging journey this lifetime.  If you ever meet him, you'll feel it.  For him to be as mature and as kind as he has been is a miracle.  He still has hope that not everyone is like the majority of people he's known.  That sort of inner light is nearly impossible to keep alive.  And so my expectations for him are very different than my expectations I've had for you.  For someone like him I expect failure.  Yet he is a miracle.  So while he's done things that many can't understand, I don't think he's "bad" or not with Spirit.  I think he's one of the gangsters in the world who fought to be here and is doing the god damned best he can.  I will never be that person to condemn him by saying, "He's not ready.  He's not trying.  He's not with Spirit.  He's not doing the best he can.  He could do better.  He doesn't know power.  He's evil."  I want to be that person to say, "Yeah, he fucked some **** up but he did everything he could to help another to the best of his ability."  I mean, he cared.... a lot.... and has been very genuine in his efforts.  I mean, yeah, it was a little unconventional what he's done... but I can say the same thing about me.... about Wolf... The three of us have very dark origins and so yeah, our methods are bit loopy from time to time.  It's just part of our background  So when we understand others and compare them against themselves, instead of comparing them against society or some vague norm then suddenly there's no thing people are "lacking".  We are each a different expression of perfection and we're all learning and applying as fast as we can.  

The main difference is that with the shaman there is Spirit present. Here in the 'stalks' of these passers by at our site it is not - or to such a small degree I do not really consider it around as such or at least as much .
  Hmmm... interesting you feel that way.  The shaman will see Spirit in everything--as anything can become a message at any moment.  


Personally, I've really benefited from being stalked.  First was Wolf when said I made his horses sick (I had to contemplate whether I'm evil and vengeful and later decided to hold that AP because he gave me that ability to connect with the idea).  Kris was a very well done stalk for me and he hit me hard.  He taught me to understand him and gave me enough of him to make a picture out of those fragments.  I had to throw out everything I knew about the world and what I thought of as evil--because for him he had to endure those things.  If I wanted to know him I couldn't know him with judgement--I had to know him with my heart.  That took a hell of a lot of inner work to know his spirit.  For me to say his efforts weren't of Spirit would be a lie.  He has so much Spirit that Spirit is about the only thing that has kept him alive for so long.  

So to say what we do at Sorcery isn't of Spirit is a reflection not on what's present at Sorcery--but really it's about what one finds at Sorcery.  I guess for you Sorcery stalks haven't been an act of Spirit; but for me these stalks have all been such a pure expression that I am grateful Spirit found a way to reach me to help propel me just a wee bit further down my own path of self-awareness (touching the I AM).  I hope you can find a way to Spirit through any experience, whenever you decide that's what you want.

I do not understand what gives people the audacity and the self-importance that they think they can be somebody's savior and have the right to do whatever they deem necessary to 'better' these people. Remember how you felt when Dok tried to help you? 
Maybe it should be less about you understanding people and more about understanding yourself.  What about yourself can help you better understand these people?  


Oh, I love Dok.  He has brought the best A-game to Sorcery I've ever seen.  He's better than both Wolf and Kris.  To counter Dok took a lot of adaptation on my end... I love the challenge and I did have to learn some new skills to keep up with Dok.  I had to learn about changing frequencies for one.  There were more skills too, like he forced me to up my own connection with Spirit and I absolutely adore my new skillset.  If I thought him receptive to a thank you note, I would send one.  

I remember that I was frustrated with Dok, but I get frustrated with most.  I don't mind that Dok was the way he was because in the long-term he gave me such an abundance of new skills in such a short time frame that I gained more than I lost.  I may have lost some energy and it was relatively painful to endure his AP, but what I walked away from at the end of the exchange was incredible.  It's like, he beat me up and left me sore and bruised but I was able to rob him blind in the process.... and bruises fade, but gems in the form of knowledge are infinite.  Totally worth being beat up over.  Through him I learned all about a different field of Spirit and he served as a gateway into a new set of APs.  It was really a cool experience and I can respect the fact that he shared it, even if unwillingly, by merely being present.  

Now I recognize not everyone is like me.  Not everyone should have the experiences I've had, just like not everyone should experience what Kris, Wolf, or Sen have.  I don't want people to feel the way Kris, Wolf, or Sen have felt--so I do my best to counter the people who are a bit abrasive in certain ways.  I'll protect people who are being bullied, but I'll also befriend the bully and many don't understand this.  At the end of the day we're all human and making the most sense out of our experiences as we're capable.

Indeed it is an important thing to learn to let other be . Because sometimes that is the best thing for them.

Circumstances will dictate whether it is best to engage or disengage.  I know the importance of letting things be; it's why I haven't re-joined RF.  It is important that I not be there because people are recovering and that is not something I'll rush.  Engagement is a personal decision and whether those are guided by Spirit is something an outside perspective is incapable of knowing.  

It is not for nothing that the CC books speak of tricks. People need to be tricked. Not forced, clubbed and battered into whatever heh. In general. There is always that petty tyrant method... but that is already warrior style. A normal person would evade the petty tyrant not go head on into such a situation. Being aware, with a petty tyrant a warrior has already chosen to battle and learn and work on themselves. To me it seemed that Kris was a better petty tyrant to Sen than anything else. Petty tyrants are not teachers though they can in spite of themselves teach something to an aware person. 
This gets complicated when we define what a teacher is and what a teacher should be.


Let's shift the discussion from Kris/Sen to Kao/Billy.  Billy was a great teacher for me and the many of us tasked with addressing him.  For me he taught me a lot and I guess I could see him as a petty tyrant if I wanted, but there was nothing petty about him.  Because of him a lot about Sorcery had to change.  He demonstrated why it's important to protect personal space of individuals, but also the common space.  He found the weak spaces and that discovery allowed us to strengthen that area. For me, I had to develop my ability to detach and ignore lol but that was an area for me to work on.  It was simple enough to let him say whatever he wanted about me since I had past experience with people who start rumors; but I hadn't learned how to detach from unhealthy relationships of a specific flavor.  So with Billy's help, I eventually learned how to sever ties with a different friend that turned out to be a very unhealthy relationship (Alan).  Billy was a petty tyrant for me personally but he was so much more than that.  I appreciate what he offered me and I applied the knowledge he brought to my life into other areas.  For me, Spirit moved through Billy to bring to light an issue I was struggling with.  I may not talk to Billy, but I bow to who he is and what he's helped me fix within myself.  

Kris offered Sen a similar opportunity.  Kris offered me a similar opportunity.  Everyone moves with Spirit and it's up to us to decide whether we let Spirit move us.

And of course, they don't realize how far the rabbit hole goes. But there is no way to tell them that. This is just how it is. I had no idea what I was getting myself into either . But one does not do anything one doesn't want to do really. So in that sense, it doesn't matter.

hahahaha, eh, the f*cking rabbit hole gets me every time.  Looking back a decade I can say I never thought what I do now was even possible back in the beginning.  Those who take the plunge down the rabbit hole are never left without adventure  It's such a fascinating world isn't it?  Always more to discover whenever we say "yes" to Spirit  

Any time I feel complete, I always remind myself this feeling of awareness is the dumbed down version for a different spiritual being somewhere.  Better get back to work xD 

I love when new people join the rabbit hole--they always start off so normal but then it gets 'em and they are a new breed of awesome.  

I'll reply to your following post later after I have a break from thinking