02-13-2011, 12:00 AM
mothsdream wrote:its sad that some people who can't dream with inorganic beings use the "higher road" argument to make themselves feel better about their perceived failures.
its even more sad that some sorcerers who claim they don't dream with inorganic beings use the "higher road" argument to justify their own delusions. Mothsdream, please read through what I said and quote me exactly where I said that I was taking a "Higher road". Do not put words in my mouth please. I simply choose not to dream with Inorganic beings of Castaneda's type. It is a choice that I have made, it has nothing to do with whether I can or Can't. I could if I wanted to, but I choose not to. There's a difference.
The Difference is a big one for me: I don't need their help To Astral Project, or Project my dream body onto a dreaming location. From what I've read of people who dream with these beings, is that the IOBs are always around, and taking them places often without the dreamer's permission. My dreams have indicated that I can travel just fine without their help... only doing so without their help is more laborious than letting them help me. After all, consciously controlling and Astral and Dream body is like a muscle you learn to flex over time. Babies must learn to crawl before they can walk. As it is with consciously projecting into other world. Our double does this naturally. Ask your double.
As for my dreams and the conclusions I draw from them being delusions... I can assure you my dream aren't delusions. I'll quote you a post from another dream forum I frequent that I have posted.
I once dreamed of a Vampire Family with black markings on their faces,
seated at a dinner table and eating. Nomad wrote me and said he use to
dream about that exact same vampire family as a Child.
I once had a dream about one girl from MM, Where a snake flew out of my
mouth, turned into a giant flying snake and took off into the sky with
her. She wrote me back and said that when she was a child: She use to
dream about a winged snake that would come into her dreams. She said she
had forgotten these dreams for decades until she read my dream.
I recently Dreamed of twoshadows, In my dream she turned into a giant
spider and began eating flies while humming "zippidy do da" to herself.
She replied to my thread saying that a few days before she was at a
theme park where she heard that song, and that during the day after I
had my dream she had a bizarre spider incident.
The other night I dreamed about a DV member giving me a package of
skittles. She wrote back and said that the day I had the dream, she had a
sudden strong craving for skittles.
Last night I dreamed my friend in Red deer was sitting on a car and
talking to his friend about his band. Later on they plated a video game
with lazer guns and may have been killing Zombies. I just talked to him
and he said he did exactly that the other day.
Since then, I've had many more examples.
I dreamed that my cousin's deceased father came to me in a dream when she was looking for him. He told me to give her a message that he was still around, and that she should not worry about him really being dead. I told her and she was shocked at what I said because she had always wondered.
A friend of mine in Calgary, His mother died years ago, and Recently I dreamed he was in a messy room that was his. But his mother also lived there, but I could not see her. I told him this dream and he also confirmed he had many dreams like this around her death.
I once dreamed that I was carrying my friend Nomad's ashes in the future up a hill in Hawaii. I threw his ashes over a cliff and into a wind that carried his ashes out to sea. I told him this dream, and he said that he planned to do this exactly with the remains of his recently deceased cousin.
I dreamed an old female friend form BC had died. The explanation in the dream was that she had MS twice, and cancer and didn't seek help for these things until it was too late. A month later She came for a visit. During the night the subject of MS came up twice Randomly in conversation. And the second time was in a conversation between her and a friend about a medication they had recently stopped taking, and they had stopped taking it because it causes MS. I immediately told her the dream. She was shocked and I also learned that a month before her mother had died of cancer.
I can go on and on. I can put you in touch with these people to verify what I have said. So how is it that I have so many dreams that are so verifiable and tangible in my waking reality later on. Is that a delusion? Just because I did all this stuff without the help of IOBs of castaneda's type, does it suddenly make all these real and verifiable experiences between dream and reality a delusion?
Don juan often encourages people to follow a path with heart.
Anything is one of a million paths. Therefore, a warrior must always keep in mind that a path is
only a path; if he feels that he should not follow it, he must not stay with it under any conditions.
His decision to keep on that path or to leave it must be free of fear or ambition. He must look at
every path closely and deliberately. There is a question that a warrior has to ask, mandatory: Does
this path have a heart?
All paths are the same: they lead nowhere. However, a path without a heart is never enjoyable. On
the other hand, a path with heart is easy - it does not make a warrior work at liking it; it makes for a
joyful journey; as long as a man follows it, he is one with it.
There is a world of happiness where there is no difference between things because there is no one
there to ask about the difference. But that is not the world of men. Some men have the vanity to
believe that they live in two worlds, but that is only their vanity. There is but one single world for
us. We are men, and must follow the world of men contentedly. all my experience with dreaming and the conclusions I have drawn were all based on this quote and path with heart. And I continue it.
As for don juan making things up..
Quote from the wheel of time. commentary on the teachings...
The essence of whatever don Juan said at the beginning of my apprenticeship is encapsulated in the
abstract nature of the quotations selected from the first book, The Teachings of Don Juan. At the
time of the events described in that book, don Juan spoke a great deal about allies, power plants,
Mescalito, the little smoke, the wind, the spirits of rivers and mountains, the spirit of the chaparral,
etc., etc. Later on when I questioned him about his emphasis on those elements, and why he wasn't
using them anymore, he admitted unabashedly that at the beginning of my apprenticeship, he had
gone into all that pseudo-Indian shaman rigmarole for my benefit.
I was flabbergasted. I wondered how he could make such a statement, which was obviously not
true. He had really meant what he said about those elements of his world, and I was certainly the
man who could attest to the veracity of his words and moods.
"Don't take it so seriously," he said, laughing. "It was very enjoyable for me to get into all that ****,
and it was even more enjoyable because I knew that I was doing it for your benefit."
The Wheel of Time
"For my benefit, don Juan? What kind of aberration is this?"
"Yes, for your benefit. I tricked you by holding your attention on items of your world which held a
profound fascination for you, and you swallowed it hook, line and sinker.
"All I needed was to get your undivided attention. But how could I have done that when you had
such an undisciplined spirit? You yourself told me time and time again that you stayed with me
because you found what I said about the world fascinating. What you didn't know how to express
was that the fascination that you felt was based on the fact that you vaguely recognized every
element I was talking about. You thought that the vagueness was, of course, shamanism, and you
went for it, meaning you
stayed."
"Do you do this to everybody, don Juan?" "Not to everybody, because not everybody comes to me,
and above all, I'm not interested in everybody. I was and I am interested in you, you alone
Oh what's this? Don juan admits to "making things up," for castaneda in order to lead him to knowledge. Well my my, doesn't this throw other specifics about what Don juan taught to carlos into question?
And how is it that my friend Nomad, has a dream of Don juan, Who has never read the wheel of time BTW, who in effect tells Nomad that with dreaming he was doing exactly the same thing.
I am tired of your ****, shaman! All your puzzles and riddles and crazy
games, all your bullshit. I am all done with you! Fed up! Stop trying
to make me doubt my actions. I don't care if I am not aware of the
physical state, or if you are some type of dream guide or some awesome
dead guy blah blah blah.... I only had those stupid IB dreams when
guess what? I had them when I was reading your book.
You think you know everything about dreaming.
That
would be Carlos that thinks he knows everything about dreaming. You see
he took what I said, and expounded upon it, and perceived me in his own
way. What he did not realize was that I was referencing a very specific
world that is not universal to all dreaming, but it is a path that he
had chosen for himself. Just as hallucinogens were necessary for one
such as him to be inducted into the wayless path, his perception of the
dream plane, a very abstract one was necessary for him to understand
dreaming. But, what he did not understand was I was teaching him a
perception that was to be for him alone. Other may perceive it
similarly, but not so universally as he so egotistically thought.
Carlos was always fascinated by a new experience, even if it was an old
experience forgotten, but never understood the true purpose which is to
perceive energy not as its truest form, but it's purest form, which is
this:
Everything changes into colored energy.
Now you see me for what I am, a dream character of Carlos Castaneda. It
is true that I am real. It is also true he met me in waking life. But,
I have no physical form. He was awake when we met because of the
hallucinogens he took. He had many dreams and many drug trips that were
so real, they were memories to him, which of course, they are. He had
dreams taking drugs, and when he was on a drug, he would take another
drug in his head, in the drug trip. I am at once a sentient entity, a
collection of thoughts and projections based on plant experiences and
the energy of a multitude of dreamers. But, at my core I am a creation
of Carlos Castaneda, yet I am real.
There right there!
its even more sad that some sorcerers who claim they don't dream with inorganic beings use the "higher road" argument to justify their own delusions. Mothsdream, please read through what I said and quote me exactly where I said that I was taking a "Higher road". Do not put words in my mouth please. I simply choose not to dream with Inorganic beings of Castaneda's type. It is a choice that I have made, it has nothing to do with whether I can or Can't. I could if I wanted to, but I choose not to. There's a difference.
The Difference is a big one for me: I don't need their help To Astral Project, or Project my dream body onto a dreaming location. From what I've read of people who dream with these beings, is that the IOBs are always around, and taking them places often without the dreamer's permission. My dreams have indicated that I can travel just fine without their help... only doing so without their help is more laborious than letting them help me. After all, consciously controlling and Astral and Dream body is like a muscle you learn to flex over time. Babies must learn to crawl before they can walk. As it is with consciously projecting into other world. Our double does this naturally. Ask your double.
As for my dreams and the conclusions I draw from them being delusions... I can assure you my dream aren't delusions. I'll quote you a post from another dream forum I frequent that I have posted.
I once dreamed of a Vampire Family with black markings on their faces,
seated at a dinner table and eating. Nomad wrote me and said he use to
dream about that exact same vampire family as a Child.
I once had a dream about one girl from MM, Where a snake flew out of my
mouth, turned into a giant flying snake and took off into the sky with
her. She wrote me back and said that when she was a child: She use to
dream about a winged snake that would come into her dreams. She said she
had forgotten these dreams for decades until she read my dream.
I recently Dreamed of twoshadows, In my dream she turned into a giant
spider and began eating flies while humming "zippidy do da" to herself.
She replied to my thread saying that a few days before she was at a
theme park where she heard that song, and that during the day after I
had my dream she had a bizarre spider incident.
The other night I dreamed about a DV member giving me a package of
skittles. She wrote back and said that the day I had the dream, she had a
sudden strong craving for skittles.
Last night I dreamed my friend in Red deer was sitting on a car and
talking to his friend about his band. Later on they plated a video game
with lazer guns and may have been killing Zombies. I just talked to him
and he said he did exactly that the other day.
Since then, I've had many more examples.
I dreamed that my cousin's deceased father came to me in a dream when she was looking for him. He told me to give her a message that he was still around, and that she should not worry about him really being dead. I told her and she was shocked at what I said because she had always wondered.
A friend of mine in Calgary, His mother died years ago, and Recently I dreamed he was in a messy room that was his. But his mother also lived there, but I could not see her. I told him this dream and he also confirmed he had many dreams like this around her death.
I once dreamed that I was carrying my friend Nomad's ashes in the future up a hill in Hawaii. I threw his ashes over a cliff and into a wind that carried his ashes out to sea. I told him this dream, and he said that he planned to do this exactly with the remains of his recently deceased cousin.
I dreamed an old female friend form BC had died. The explanation in the dream was that she had MS twice, and cancer and didn't seek help for these things until it was too late. A month later She came for a visit. During the night the subject of MS came up twice Randomly in conversation. And the second time was in a conversation between her and a friend about a medication they had recently stopped taking, and they had stopped taking it because it causes MS. I immediately told her the dream. She was shocked and I also learned that a month before her mother had died of cancer.
I can go on and on. I can put you in touch with these people to verify what I have said. So how is it that I have so many dreams that are so verifiable and tangible in my waking reality later on. Is that a delusion? Just because I did all this stuff without the help of IOBs of castaneda's type, does it suddenly make all these real and verifiable experiences between dream and reality a delusion?
Don juan often encourages people to follow a path with heart.
Anything is one of a million paths. Therefore, a warrior must always keep in mind that a path is
only a path; if he feels that he should not follow it, he must not stay with it under any conditions.
His decision to keep on that path or to leave it must be free of fear or ambition. He must look at
every path closely and deliberately. There is a question that a warrior has to ask, mandatory: Does
this path have a heart?
All paths are the same: they lead nowhere. However, a path without a heart is never enjoyable. On
the other hand, a path with heart is easy - it does not make a warrior work at liking it; it makes for a
joyful journey; as long as a man follows it, he is one with it.
There is a world of happiness where there is no difference between things because there is no one
there to ask about the difference. But that is not the world of men. Some men have the vanity to
believe that they live in two worlds, but that is only their vanity. There is but one single world for
us. We are men, and must follow the world of men contentedly. all my experience with dreaming and the conclusions I have drawn were all based on this quote and path with heart. And I continue it.
As for don juan making things up..
Quote from the wheel of time. commentary on the teachings...
The essence of whatever don Juan said at the beginning of my apprenticeship is encapsulated in the
abstract nature of the quotations selected from the first book, The Teachings of Don Juan. At the
time of the events described in that book, don Juan spoke a great deal about allies, power plants,
Mescalito, the little smoke, the wind, the spirits of rivers and mountains, the spirit of the chaparral,
etc., etc. Later on when I questioned him about his emphasis on those elements, and why he wasn't
using them anymore, he admitted unabashedly that at the beginning of my apprenticeship, he had
gone into all that pseudo-Indian shaman rigmarole for my benefit.
I was flabbergasted. I wondered how he could make such a statement, which was obviously not
true. He had really meant what he said about those elements of his world, and I was certainly the
man who could attest to the veracity of his words and moods.
"Don't take it so seriously," he said, laughing. "It was very enjoyable for me to get into all that ****,
and it was even more enjoyable because I knew that I was doing it for your benefit."
The Wheel of Time
"For my benefit, don Juan? What kind of aberration is this?"
"Yes, for your benefit. I tricked you by holding your attention on items of your world which held a
profound fascination for you, and you swallowed it hook, line and sinker.
"All I needed was to get your undivided attention. But how could I have done that when you had
such an undisciplined spirit? You yourself told me time and time again that you stayed with me
because you found what I said about the world fascinating. What you didn't know how to express
was that the fascination that you felt was based on the fact that you vaguely recognized every
element I was talking about. You thought that the vagueness was, of course, shamanism, and you
went for it, meaning you
stayed."
"Do you do this to everybody, don Juan?" "Not to everybody, because not everybody comes to me,
and above all, I'm not interested in everybody. I was and I am interested in you, you alone
Oh what's this? Don juan admits to "making things up," for castaneda in order to lead him to knowledge. Well my my, doesn't this throw other specifics about what Don juan taught to carlos into question?
And how is it that my friend Nomad, has a dream of Don juan, Who has never read the wheel of time BTW, who in effect tells Nomad that with dreaming he was doing exactly the same thing.
I am tired of your ****, shaman! All your puzzles and riddles and crazy
games, all your bullshit. I am all done with you! Fed up! Stop trying
to make me doubt my actions. I don't care if I am not aware of the
physical state, or if you are some type of dream guide or some awesome
dead guy blah blah blah.... I only had those stupid IB dreams when
guess what? I had them when I was reading your book.
You think you know everything about dreaming.
That
would be Carlos that thinks he knows everything about dreaming. You see
he took what I said, and expounded upon it, and perceived me in his own
way. What he did not realize was that I was referencing a very specific
world that is not universal to all dreaming, but it is a path that he
had chosen for himself. Just as hallucinogens were necessary for one
such as him to be inducted into the wayless path, his perception of the
dream plane, a very abstract one was necessary for him to understand
dreaming. But, what he did not understand was I was teaching him a
perception that was to be for him alone. Other may perceive it
similarly, but not so universally as he so egotistically thought.
Carlos was always fascinated by a new experience, even if it was an old
experience forgotten, but never understood the true purpose which is to
perceive energy not as its truest form, but it's purest form, which is
this:
Everything changes into colored energy.
Now you see me for what I am, a dream character of Carlos Castaneda. It
is true that I am real. It is also true he met me in waking life. But,
I have no physical form. He was awake when we met because of the
hallucinogens he took. He had many dreams and many drug trips that were
so real, they were memories to him, which of course, they are. He had
dreams taking drugs, and when he was on a drug, he would take another
drug in his head, in the drug trip. I am at once a sentient entity, a
collection of thoughts and projections based on plant experiences and
the energy of a multitude of dreamers. But, at my core I am a creation
of Carlos Castaneda, yet I am real.
There right there!