04-10-2011, 12:00 AM
Nu Lang wrote:
alien wrote:
Seems like a major double-standard. Warriors and naguals are human beings, first and foremost. What's the difference between a spiritual teacher and a piano teacher? Is there really any difference, or just self-importance that makes one think so? If you want someone's knowledge, what makes you think it is "owed" to you? Isn't that the definition of SI? If everything is energy, why is the energy of a nagual less than the energy of a piano teacher? If we are going to operate under the notion that all things are equal, then all things are equal, no? I'd really like to get to the bottom of this idea wherein folks seem to think they are entitled. "Knowledge should be free!" That's the old war cry, and MAYBE I agree with it in principle. Sure, knowledge should be free. But wha about someone else's time and energy? Does anyone really OWE that to you?
I think that a nagual should not perceive they have something to offer (and charge for). In truth warriors and nagauls are equal. The nagual is a conduit, but in order to be a conduit, one needs a recipient, without the recipient, there is no need for the nagual. So they are completely equal. Charging money is saying that the nagaul is providing something, but in truth a nagual is just as much provided as they provide. Without a warrior or nagual apprentice to impart knowledge to, they as teachers serve no purpose.
That's not really the issue, and it sounds to me like somewhat of a song-and-dance routine. I've never said the warrior and the nagual aren't equals - but don Juan said it quite emphatically. When DJM asked Carlos if Carlos viewed them as equals, Carlos started some patronizing yada and DJM interrupted him to essentially say, "I am a man of knowledge and you are a pimp." Heh. I'm sure I can dig out chapter & verse if you really want it verbatim, but I suspect you're already familiar with the passage. Point being - Carlos sought out don Juan, not the other way around, and that's the case w/ most warrior/mentor relationships. The nagual isn't actively looking for students, but neither does s/he turn away if the student appears. I've never turned anyone away for lack of ability to "pay". But I HAVE turned away those who display a sense of "entitlement" - only because that mindset pre-determines that the "student" wants something for nothing, and whenever that is the case, the student is not committed to Knowledge, because their self-importance is so huge as to feel it is "owed" something by someone else. I don't owe anyone anything. I can't give anyone my knowledge. I can only give them information.
Spirit provides both...the teacher and recipient. Spirit is the value and is what makes it all happen. I see it as lack of humility on a nagual's part if they charge the recipient for their time.
You keep saying "I believe" and "I see it this way or that way..." and that's all okay, but I wonder where you are getting these "rules" and ideas. Just because YOU see it as "lack of humility on a natual's part if..." doesn't make it so. It just means that's what you believe. You say "Spirit makes it all happen" and "Spirit provides both"... but is that really a quantifiable truth, or only your personal belief system? The reason I am pressing this is because we started to get into a similar difference of opinion regarding the foreign installation, and essentially I backed out because it became clear that you were basing so much of your argument on what you believe with essentially nothing to back it up other than belief itself. At that point, hasn't it become just another religion? So if you're going to make blanket statements, all I'm asking is that you back them up with some sort of personal experience. WHY do you believe whatever it is you are arguing for or against? I'm not talking about stuff written in books, but your own experience. Why is it lack of humility on a nagual's part if they charge a recipient for their time? Where is it written that a nagual must have "humility"? Is that a requirement or just what you yourself might prefer? Why does payment (whether money or other form of barter) foul the equation in your eyes? Is the knowledge not the SAME knowledge whether one pays for it with money, groceries or attention? Why do you seem to think spiritual knowledge should be handed to you, when you wouldn't expect a lawyer to spend hours on your case without some manner of compensation? Arguing that the tonal and the nagual are different really doesn't work here, because the basis of Toltec is that all things are equal.
I'm not trying to be difficult - just pointing out that Toltec advocates the eventual loss of ALL belief systems, including its own. So when you make arguments that APPEAR to be based on your personal beliefs, I think you're going to find some challenges from others who may not just blindly agree.
The nagual should be as grateful just to have the time and awareness of the recipient (and how it enhances they the nagual) as the recipient is grateful to the naguals teaching.
Grateful is great! But it doesn't pay the bills.
I do realize tonal concerns are a factor, thats why I say the nagual should accept the tonal for what it is and earn their living in a way that does not interfere with the nagual.
There's that word again. "Should..." Says who? And while we're at it, WHY "should" a nagual earn their living in any certain way, anymore than anyone else? All things are equal, remember? I'm really just wondering if you are aware of the inherent contradictions between the actual Toltec teachings and what you yourself merely believe. If YOU believe you should earn your living in a particular way, that's fine & good. But why would you put that belief onto someone else with use of the word "should"? Again, I'm not trying to yank your crank, just wanting you to really look at what you are saying, and compare it with the reality of the world in which we live.
And I refer here to the lineage and teachings of Castaneda, Toltec knowledge. This is the area I feel one should not be charging for.
Why? If Castaneda hadn't published his books - for which he was well paid - we wouldn't even be having this discussion. Sure, MAYBE he wrote the first book as a college thesis, but ultimately "the further adventures of don Juan" made CC one of the most successful writer on the 20th century. I assume you bought his books and didn't just pirate-download them for free off the internet, so isn't that just another form of paying someone for their knowledge? Why is that okay and yet it isn't okay to deal one-on-one with a wo/man of knowledge? This is where I see the double standard. If Carlos had never written his books, but made himself available for a series of lectures, would you expect to attend for free? Why is the spoken word (a lecture or in-person encounter) different from a book? Why does the FORM the knowledge takes seem to make a difference? Either you want the knowledge or you don't.
If one wants to be a yoga instructor as their day job, or an astrologer or medium, healer...those are all things that can be charged for. But when a nagual encounters a warrior who also has power and between them is toltec knowledge, I see that as not of this world, not of the capitalist exchange system, and to bring it into such is to miss what tolec teachings are imparting. Then the link to power is either diluted or lost. Usually diluted.
Do you even hear what you're saying? Don't mean to be rude, but can you not *see* the double standard inherent in your comments here? What's the difference in your head between a yoga instructor, astrologer, medium and a nagual?
Seems like a major double-standard. Warriors and naguals are human beings, first and foremost. What's the difference between a spiritual teacher and a piano teacher? Is there really any difference, or just self-importance that makes one think so?
As I see it, the difference only applies to Toltec understanding and specifically forming a warrior party.
Why? That makes no sense. *shrugs* And while we're at it, how many warrior parties have you formed?
Warriors and nagauls are not just human beings, they are magical beings.
All beings are magical beings. All beings are equal.
They are here to learn to shift their aps to assemble alternate worlds. They are not 'here' the same way other humans are here. Warriors and naguals can slip through the openings and disappear. They are sorcerers.
What does that have to do with the topic at hand? If you knew someone had that knowledge - to slip through the cracks and disappear - wouldn't you feel that knowledge was sufficiently valuable to warrant compensation to someone who could teach you how to do it? I would.
alien wrote:
Seems like a major double-standard. Warriors and naguals are human beings, first and foremost. What's the difference between a spiritual teacher and a piano teacher? Is there really any difference, or just self-importance that makes one think so? If you want someone's knowledge, what makes you think it is "owed" to you? Isn't that the definition of SI? If everything is energy, why is the energy of a nagual less than the energy of a piano teacher? If we are going to operate under the notion that all things are equal, then all things are equal, no? I'd really like to get to the bottom of this idea wherein folks seem to think they are entitled. "Knowledge should be free!" That's the old war cry, and MAYBE I agree with it in principle. Sure, knowledge should be free. But wha about someone else's time and energy? Does anyone really OWE that to you?
I think that a nagual should not perceive they have something to offer (and charge for). In truth warriors and nagauls are equal. The nagual is a conduit, but in order to be a conduit, one needs a recipient, without the recipient, there is no need for the nagual. So they are completely equal. Charging money is saying that the nagaul is providing something, but in truth a nagual is just as much provided as they provide. Without a warrior or nagual apprentice to impart knowledge to, they as teachers serve no purpose.
That's not really the issue, and it sounds to me like somewhat of a song-and-dance routine. I've never said the warrior and the nagual aren't equals - but don Juan said it quite emphatically. When DJM asked Carlos if Carlos viewed them as equals, Carlos started some patronizing yada and DJM interrupted him to essentially say, "I am a man of knowledge and you are a pimp." Heh. I'm sure I can dig out chapter & verse if you really want it verbatim, but I suspect you're already familiar with the passage. Point being - Carlos sought out don Juan, not the other way around, and that's the case w/ most warrior/mentor relationships. The nagual isn't actively looking for students, but neither does s/he turn away if the student appears. I've never turned anyone away for lack of ability to "pay". But I HAVE turned away those who display a sense of "entitlement" - only because that mindset pre-determines that the "student" wants something for nothing, and whenever that is the case, the student is not committed to Knowledge, because their self-importance is so huge as to feel it is "owed" something by someone else. I don't owe anyone anything. I can't give anyone my knowledge. I can only give them information.
Spirit provides both...the teacher and recipient. Spirit is the value and is what makes it all happen. I see it as lack of humility on a nagual's part if they charge the recipient for their time.
You keep saying "I believe" and "I see it this way or that way..." and that's all okay, but I wonder where you are getting these "rules" and ideas. Just because YOU see it as "lack of humility on a natual's part if..." doesn't make it so. It just means that's what you believe. You say "Spirit makes it all happen" and "Spirit provides both"... but is that really a quantifiable truth, or only your personal belief system? The reason I am pressing this is because we started to get into a similar difference of opinion regarding the foreign installation, and essentially I backed out because it became clear that you were basing so much of your argument on what you believe with essentially nothing to back it up other than belief itself. At that point, hasn't it become just another religion? So if you're going to make blanket statements, all I'm asking is that you back them up with some sort of personal experience. WHY do you believe whatever it is you are arguing for or against? I'm not talking about stuff written in books, but your own experience. Why is it lack of humility on a nagual's part if they charge a recipient for their time? Where is it written that a nagual must have "humility"? Is that a requirement or just what you yourself might prefer? Why does payment (whether money or other form of barter) foul the equation in your eyes? Is the knowledge not the SAME knowledge whether one pays for it with money, groceries or attention? Why do you seem to think spiritual knowledge should be handed to you, when you wouldn't expect a lawyer to spend hours on your case without some manner of compensation? Arguing that the tonal and the nagual are different really doesn't work here, because the basis of Toltec is that all things are equal.
I'm not trying to be difficult - just pointing out that Toltec advocates the eventual loss of ALL belief systems, including its own. So when you make arguments that APPEAR to be based on your personal beliefs, I think you're going to find some challenges from others who may not just blindly agree.
The nagual should be as grateful just to have the time and awareness of the recipient (and how it enhances they the nagual) as the recipient is grateful to the naguals teaching.
Grateful is great! But it doesn't pay the bills.
I do realize tonal concerns are a factor, thats why I say the nagual should accept the tonal for what it is and earn their living in a way that does not interfere with the nagual.
There's that word again. "Should..." Says who? And while we're at it, WHY "should" a nagual earn their living in any certain way, anymore than anyone else? All things are equal, remember? I'm really just wondering if you are aware of the inherent contradictions between the actual Toltec teachings and what you yourself merely believe. If YOU believe you should earn your living in a particular way, that's fine & good. But why would you put that belief onto someone else with use of the word "should"? Again, I'm not trying to yank your crank, just wanting you to really look at what you are saying, and compare it with the reality of the world in which we live.
And I refer here to the lineage and teachings of Castaneda, Toltec knowledge. This is the area I feel one should not be charging for.
Why? If Castaneda hadn't published his books - for which he was well paid - we wouldn't even be having this discussion. Sure, MAYBE he wrote the first book as a college thesis, but ultimately "the further adventures of don Juan" made CC one of the most successful writer on the 20th century. I assume you bought his books and didn't just pirate-download them for free off the internet, so isn't that just another form of paying someone for their knowledge? Why is that okay and yet it isn't okay to deal one-on-one with a wo/man of knowledge? This is where I see the double standard. If Carlos had never written his books, but made himself available for a series of lectures, would you expect to attend for free? Why is the spoken word (a lecture or in-person encounter) different from a book? Why does the FORM the knowledge takes seem to make a difference? Either you want the knowledge or you don't.
If one wants to be a yoga instructor as their day job, or an astrologer or medium, healer...those are all things that can be charged for. But when a nagual encounters a warrior who also has power and between them is toltec knowledge, I see that as not of this world, not of the capitalist exchange system, and to bring it into such is to miss what tolec teachings are imparting. Then the link to power is either diluted or lost. Usually diluted.
Do you even hear what you're saying? Don't mean to be rude, but can you not *see* the double standard inherent in your comments here? What's the difference in your head between a yoga instructor, astrologer, medium and a nagual?
Seems like a major double-standard. Warriors and naguals are human beings, first and foremost. What's the difference between a spiritual teacher and a piano teacher? Is there really any difference, or just self-importance that makes one think so?
As I see it, the difference only applies to Toltec understanding and specifically forming a warrior party.
Why? That makes no sense. *shrugs* And while we're at it, how many warrior parties have you formed?
Warriors and nagauls are not just human beings, they are magical beings.
All beings are magical beings. All beings are equal.
They are here to learn to shift their aps to assemble alternate worlds. They are not 'here' the same way other humans are here. Warriors and naguals can slip through the openings and disappear. They are sorcerers.
What does that have to do with the topic at hand? If you knew someone had that knowledge - to slip through the cracks and disappear - wouldn't you feel that knowledge was sufficiently valuable to warrant compensation to someone who could teach you how to do it? I would.