04-11-2011, 12:00 AM
alien wrote:Nu Lang wrote:
All beings are magical beings. All beings are equal.All beings/things are equal, but not all are magical in how they perceive the world available to them.
You just contradicted yourself. If all beings are equal, then all beings are magical. All I'm trying to do here is bring to your attention that you are creating a false reality rooted in a false belief which seems to be telling you that naguals are somehow "better" than anyone else. I know you will say that isn't what you believe - and I believe you when you say that - but if I just take you at your "words" here, you are projecting something that may be quite different than what you actually Intend.
*Alien--I really have no idea where you think I suggested naguals are better. In fact I have been saying all along that naguals (many of the ones I've encountered), like to charge people for their services and its this that I say is their perceiving they are better and thus can put a price on what they provide. I have been saying that naguals need warriors in equal measure and therefore should be humble and not charge for what they do. This is my opinion and I only wish to express it for those it resonates with and if one does not agree and wants to pay a nagual, that is their business and I'm only putting my view out there for others it will apply to.
When I say not all beings are magical, it just refers to that not all will seek sorcery, the magical worlds. I've already clarified this previously here.
Only those touched by the nagual know magic because they perceive it. Nagual referred to here as not being a person, but 'the nagual'. These magical beings can band together as warrior parties with the purpose of journeying through infinity. Power decides the formation of the party and each warrior belongs to/forms only one party, though parties and members of different lineages can converse and benefit from those exchanges.
Absolutely no offense intended here, but this sounds like a role-playing game and not the actuality of warrior parties. Remember, DJM told Carlos many times that the old lineage was finished. Just as the old seers were finished. I don't think "warrior parties" nowadays bear much resemblance to what was described in CC's books. And, for that matter, why would one need a "party" to journey through infinity? If one achieves the totality of oneself - conjoins with one's double and becomes what I call a "singularity of consciousness" - one is essentially whole throughout time/space and beyond. We could assume from that point that the Whole Being could interact with whoever/whatever it might chooe. Now, I realize we're discussing CC's ideas here, but my point is simply this: don't get so married to someone else's "idea" that you lose sight of your own power and possibility. CC is dead. Sad, but true. We are on our own. Each of us. Yes, we can help one another. But a warrior party? Seems unlikely on the internet.
*Alien--we are our own people, you and I and we could not disagree more on this issue. But since we see it so differently I don't see a reason to comment much further on it except to say what my destiny is is perhaps not yours, I don't know, but I'm not going to try and change your mind about it. I believe warrior parties are not only possible, but necessary, because infinity is cold and lonely in my experience. So if I didn't have a warrior party to go forward with, I'd rather not stay just among my the tonal acquaintances, that would be hell for me...I love the people in my life, but to not be able to talk and experience the Toltec path with them (they are energetically not capable of it), and to not have warriors to do this with either, I would not want to live, and I certainly would not want an afterlife without warriors, I would choose oblivion over journeying out there alone.
For a magical being to see that open path available to them, first they must drop the rationale that makes the world appear so concrete and 'negotiable', is if the mind can make things any way it wants them to be. In truth there is no negotiating, either you follow power or are left behind with ordinary men (those not accessing the nagual). Once one sees this is the only option, they see also that the only source that can guide them from then on is the one that has lead them to this very realization of perception to begin with. And at this time they realize...it was always Spirit, it was never them. There is no them that is magical, Spirit delivered the knock and to answer it they must surrender the ego (mind) to continue this magical journey.
This implies that Spirit singled them out and didn't single others out. Therefore, it further implies that all beings are not equal.
*Things are not as they seem. A warrior needs only link to Spirit, not try to figure out a world that doesn't 'make sense' anyway. When I look at a trash collector on the street here, his job is to pick up trash, and they wear these bright orange jumpsuits so you always spot them a mile away.Well, sometimes they will smile at me and I think to myself, that may not even be a person, that could be an ally. We just don't know what anyone 'is" and even if people are 'real' or if even we are 'real'. Things just are not as concrete as they appear. Everything is One, of this I agree, but within our experience of this life, there will be paths and directions perceived and we have to choose how to apply our attention and energy. I decided a while back to let go of the logic that makes conclusions such as you are doing...such as thinking I'm saying Spirit is singling people out and not others. To me that's not even a consideration. I look at everyone/thing as a mystery...some may not even be 'humans' for example.
When I say not everyone is a magical being, I only mean that sorcerers really only have other sorcerers as companions they can count on here, they are the only ones who speak our language, and yes we also encounter spirits and allies out there. There are also those we encounter that will tax our energy by pulling us into FI attention,concrete ap positions if we allow them to. These are the non magical beings. They test us too. I do not know what their destinies upon their death are going to be, I just know that as they present to me, they are not sorcerers.
These are assessments sorcerers make but they are by no means final, they are merely pragmatic, workable observations clearing the way for energy conservation...a great resource to a sorcerer. The assessment I make abotu magical vs non magical beings informs me on how to apply my energy. One example is I will not try to convert people to the Toltec path, I will let Spirit point things out rather then assume anything about anyone. Once Spirit has indicated something to me, I proceed accordingly.
As I see it, the difference only applies to Toltec understanding and specifically forming a warrior party.
Why? That makes no sense. *shrugs* And while we're at it, how many warrior parties have you formed?
Because, once they have banded together, the warrior party functions as a unit with Intent as their guide. This is not the same as the teacher-student relationships set up in social contexts i.e. piano teacher and piano student, two separate units.
I can see that having other warriors around can be inspirational and motivational, but it is still a solitary journey when all is said and done. We are all "separate units" even when working together. The reason I feel it is crucial to acknowledge this is that for as long as anyone believes they are part of a "group", there can be a tendency to kick back and let "the group" do most of the work... at which point the person gets to the end of the road only to discover that "The Work" was not something that could be done for them, even by the best warrior party in the universe. In all honesty, I've come to believe (and it's only a belief) over the years, that CC's descriuption of the warrior party was probably one of the LEAST believable and least "likely" scenarios in all of his works. It seems more like symbolism than reality - an exporation of the different aspects of the self, a metaphor for finding our own strengths. Are we scouts? Dreamers? Stalkers? Couriers?
Personally, I'm of the opinion that the moment one forms a "committee" one can essentially count on getting nothing done. LOL. I also think that's why CC so often wrote about the fights and disagreements within the warrior party. Put that many people together in ANY circumstance, and they will turn to a roomful of tomcats in battle. Just human nature. And I think that's why one of the major conclusions DJM often stressed was that it really IS a solitary journey.
Just my opinion.
*Alien-I don't think you would want to journey infinity alone. The mention of solitary journey by DJ refers to perception, its an individual affair. But to be physically alone, without others warriors to interact with, that would be excruciatingly unbearable. Once one is aware they are a warrior, they forever seek the company of fellow warriors, because its our only solace here.
All beings are magical beings. All beings are equal.All beings/things are equal, but not all are magical in how they perceive the world available to them.
You just contradicted yourself. If all beings are equal, then all beings are magical. All I'm trying to do here is bring to your attention that you are creating a false reality rooted in a false belief which seems to be telling you that naguals are somehow "better" than anyone else. I know you will say that isn't what you believe - and I believe you when you say that - but if I just take you at your "words" here, you are projecting something that may be quite different than what you actually Intend.
*Alien--I really have no idea where you think I suggested naguals are better. In fact I have been saying all along that naguals (many of the ones I've encountered), like to charge people for their services and its this that I say is their perceiving they are better and thus can put a price on what they provide. I have been saying that naguals need warriors in equal measure and therefore should be humble and not charge for what they do. This is my opinion and I only wish to express it for those it resonates with and if one does not agree and wants to pay a nagual, that is their business and I'm only putting my view out there for others it will apply to.
When I say not all beings are magical, it just refers to that not all will seek sorcery, the magical worlds. I've already clarified this previously here.
Only those touched by the nagual know magic because they perceive it. Nagual referred to here as not being a person, but 'the nagual'. These magical beings can band together as warrior parties with the purpose of journeying through infinity. Power decides the formation of the party and each warrior belongs to/forms only one party, though parties and members of different lineages can converse and benefit from those exchanges.
Absolutely no offense intended here, but this sounds like a role-playing game and not the actuality of warrior parties. Remember, DJM told Carlos many times that the old lineage was finished. Just as the old seers were finished. I don't think "warrior parties" nowadays bear much resemblance to what was described in CC's books. And, for that matter, why would one need a "party" to journey through infinity? If one achieves the totality of oneself - conjoins with one's double and becomes what I call a "singularity of consciousness" - one is essentially whole throughout time/space and beyond. We could assume from that point that the Whole Being could interact with whoever/whatever it might chooe. Now, I realize we're discussing CC's ideas here, but my point is simply this: don't get so married to someone else's "idea" that you lose sight of your own power and possibility. CC is dead. Sad, but true. We are on our own. Each of us. Yes, we can help one another. But a warrior party? Seems unlikely on the internet.
*Alien--we are our own people, you and I and we could not disagree more on this issue. But since we see it so differently I don't see a reason to comment much further on it except to say what my destiny is is perhaps not yours, I don't know, but I'm not going to try and change your mind about it. I believe warrior parties are not only possible, but necessary, because infinity is cold and lonely in my experience. So if I didn't have a warrior party to go forward with, I'd rather not stay just among my the tonal acquaintances, that would be hell for me...I love the people in my life, but to not be able to talk and experience the Toltec path with them (they are energetically not capable of it), and to not have warriors to do this with either, I would not want to live, and I certainly would not want an afterlife without warriors, I would choose oblivion over journeying out there alone.
For a magical being to see that open path available to them, first they must drop the rationale that makes the world appear so concrete and 'negotiable', is if the mind can make things any way it wants them to be. In truth there is no negotiating, either you follow power or are left behind with ordinary men (those not accessing the nagual). Once one sees this is the only option, they see also that the only source that can guide them from then on is the one that has lead them to this very realization of perception to begin with. And at this time they realize...it was always Spirit, it was never them. There is no them that is magical, Spirit delivered the knock and to answer it they must surrender the ego (mind) to continue this magical journey.
This implies that Spirit singled them out and didn't single others out. Therefore, it further implies that all beings are not equal.
*Things are not as they seem. A warrior needs only link to Spirit, not try to figure out a world that doesn't 'make sense' anyway. When I look at a trash collector on the street here, his job is to pick up trash, and they wear these bright orange jumpsuits so you always spot them a mile away.Well, sometimes they will smile at me and I think to myself, that may not even be a person, that could be an ally. We just don't know what anyone 'is" and even if people are 'real' or if even we are 'real'. Things just are not as concrete as they appear. Everything is One, of this I agree, but within our experience of this life, there will be paths and directions perceived and we have to choose how to apply our attention and energy. I decided a while back to let go of the logic that makes conclusions such as you are doing...such as thinking I'm saying Spirit is singling people out and not others. To me that's not even a consideration. I look at everyone/thing as a mystery...some may not even be 'humans' for example.
When I say not everyone is a magical being, I only mean that sorcerers really only have other sorcerers as companions they can count on here, they are the only ones who speak our language, and yes we also encounter spirits and allies out there. There are also those we encounter that will tax our energy by pulling us into FI attention,concrete ap positions if we allow them to. These are the non magical beings. They test us too. I do not know what their destinies upon their death are going to be, I just know that as they present to me, they are not sorcerers.
These are assessments sorcerers make but they are by no means final, they are merely pragmatic, workable observations clearing the way for energy conservation...a great resource to a sorcerer. The assessment I make abotu magical vs non magical beings informs me on how to apply my energy. One example is I will not try to convert people to the Toltec path, I will let Spirit point things out rather then assume anything about anyone. Once Spirit has indicated something to me, I proceed accordingly.
As I see it, the difference only applies to Toltec understanding and specifically forming a warrior party.
Why? That makes no sense. *shrugs* And while we're at it, how many warrior parties have you formed?
Because, once they have banded together, the warrior party functions as a unit with Intent as their guide. This is not the same as the teacher-student relationships set up in social contexts i.e. piano teacher and piano student, two separate units.
I can see that having other warriors around can be inspirational and motivational, but it is still a solitary journey when all is said and done. We are all "separate units" even when working together. The reason I feel it is crucial to acknowledge this is that for as long as anyone believes they are part of a "group", there can be a tendency to kick back and let "the group" do most of the work... at which point the person gets to the end of the road only to discover that "The Work" was not something that could be done for them, even by the best warrior party in the universe. In all honesty, I've come to believe (and it's only a belief) over the years, that CC's descriuption of the warrior party was probably one of the LEAST believable and least "likely" scenarios in all of his works. It seems more like symbolism than reality - an exporation of the different aspects of the self, a metaphor for finding our own strengths. Are we scouts? Dreamers? Stalkers? Couriers?
Personally, I'm of the opinion that the moment one forms a "committee" one can essentially count on getting nothing done. LOL. I also think that's why CC so often wrote about the fights and disagreements within the warrior party. Put that many people together in ANY circumstance, and they will turn to a roomful of tomcats in battle. Just human nature. And I think that's why one of the major conclusions DJM often stressed was that it really IS a solitary journey.
Just my opinion.
*Alien-I don't think you would want to journey infinity alone. The mention of solitary journey by DJ refers to perception, its an individual affair. But to be physically alone, without others warriors to interact with, that would be excruciatingly unbearable. Once one is aware they are a warrior, they forever seek the company of fellow warriors, because its our only solace here.