03-26-2006, 12:00 AM
Hi back Saranica ...
Nagual Lone Wolf .....
The problem with describing these kind of "altered states" is that because they are beyond the dual mind, therefore they are also beyond any words, and one often then needs to resort to mythological language in order to describe them ..... such as a Thunderbird/Eagle coming and "swallowing" the initiate ... only to "spit" or "****" the initiate back into the body "re-arranged".
Sometimes cultural mixing and matching works, other times it doesn't and we run into contradictions ....
Did just recently find your thread: Defining the Tonal and Nagual ....p222.ezboard.com/fsorcery...ID=3.topic
..... and I suppose it is this .... your description of the tonal then; - which I have associated with and as the "other dimensional double".
In ordinary everyday reality; - how I see this "other dimensional double" is:
On Western, (white) people I sometimes see a superimposed image upon a person, but from another; - past era, therefore I have associated this superimposed image with that person's past life ..... and if I turn my head from the image .... I sometimes see a past 'scene' unfolding with that superimposed image in it.
In many ways the person now still acts from the energy (or subconscious or "dreaming") patterns of that past. Therefore I suppose "fate" fits that description well, because who the person was then will very much determine who the person is or has a potential to be in this life .... now.
On indigenous people though, the superimposed image that I see upon them, is that of their Totem Animal, so if I look at the person I am looking at their human form, but if I engage my "dreaming ..... or second attention" (?) .... the animal is them. Like switching from looking to seeing .... back and fourth.
In Finno-Ugric/Siberian terms .... this 'superimposed image' is the double. It is also called "T-h-e Self" or "The Shadow Soul". The term "Shadow" in turn means a protector or a guardian .... as the shadow is seen sheltering the physical body-mind ....
When a person gets dramatised the "soul loss" refers to this .... (what we term as) 'the double' ....
The "Dobbelganger" is also an apt description of this ...... as many times a 'vision' .... or an energetic feeling of the ... (what we term as 'double') can be seen or felt present prior to a person's arrival say; - because a person is able to project this 'double' ahead of themselves, in it's human or in it's totem animal form.
In "Shamanicing" it is the energy .... heat .... shine ... or fire of this double, (in animal form also termed as the inner energy nature of a person) ... a Shaman raises in order to magnetize communications with intended spirits of other dimensions .....
The more that 'double' starts to shine .... the more it starts to attract/magnetize Spirit Energy and Spirit manifestations.
Therefore the heightened/shining energy of this 'double' is also seen as a persons 'ticket' (& personal power) to access and utilize (impersonal interconnectedness) energy ....I mean, that's the point in Siberian Shamanism .... to be able to handle fire ..... non-dual energy.
Animals also possess a "Shadow Soul" f.e.x. a Dingo's "shadow soul" is very, very cat-like. Looking at a dingo one is looking at it's wolf/dog-like form, but witnessing the inner energy (patterning) of a dingo, i.e. seeing the superimposed image upon the dingo or in other words seeing the inner energy projected into the auric field of the dingo ....one sees a cat ! Therefore the dingo's behaviour is governed by cat rather than wolf/dog-like behaviour (dingoes even purr !). And if I was to "shape shift" it is this inner energy that I would first identify with ... tune into .... before projecting .... (Though I have not as yet learned to shape shift .... not really).
So in many respects, what you Nagual Lone Wolf describe as "Tonal" fits to our understanding of the "other dimensional double", except that we do identify this inner fire energy and it's 'visible' to seeing (projected)form in the auric field as The Self (i.e. the double) and our understanding also is that it is the energy patterns or the 'dreaming' of this inner energy (Self) that does reincarnate.
Seems that we 'project' both the tonal and the nagual qualities to it .... the 'double' being like both, yet neither of these two .... but rather a kind of an energy "middle man".
Maybe my understanding of this 'double' does refer to the "Etheric Body" (?) then, therefore it is connected to the physical body and it's magnetic energy field or aura, and when I mentioned in the beginning of this thread that with indigenous folk communication is more on double-to-double terms .... what I mean is, that at times upon meeting an indigenous person say ... on the street .... we both stop and exchange our news without a word needed to be said, because you can "read" all your answers of a person's inner energy from a persons energy field. As Astral projection is the projection of conscious mind via the etheric double or energy body .... from that etheric double one can shift one's awareness from physical looking to (astral) or trance-like seeing, thus perceiving 2 realities; - the ordinary and the "superimposed realities" within everyday reality. So I guess, this is why my Siberian Ancestors called this (maybe) Etheric Double as The Real Self, because it is a good (impersonal/personal ... both) assemblage point of awareness to identify with in order to communicate with "Universe" in more "energetic terms" & a good point to "shift" from also .......
Found this yogic view on etheric body and shape shifting in the net:
What is shape-shifting? As I understand it---from a yogic point of view---The process is one of thought. While asleep, we all travel out of our physical bodies, but for so many of us there is no memory of this. Sometimes, we may just mistake it for a dream. However, a person with this siddhi, or yogic power, can do this consciously. This involves two different methods entirely. First of all, there is the bi-location effect, where a person is seen miles from where they are. This is the famous Doppelganger, or the etheric double, which really isn't a separate body or sheath, but part of the physical body manifestation. It is a form of shape-shifting, but it is the same image and it is in a subtle form. The other type of shape-shifting, is where the form is more solidified to appear as a normal physical body. This can be done during different periods of time depending on the person. Some yogis have the ability to shift to numerous bodies, and some can take a different form or forms altogether. It all depends on mind control, and the abilities reached in previous incarnations.
Even though here we may be talking about the 'double' in seeming contradictory terms .... still what you wrote in the "Try this" thread shows, that in practice we seem to be doing (or maybe not-doing) a similar thing.
p222.ezboard.com/fsorcery...ID=7.topic
For not only are we able to feel/sense our auric/luminous cocoons ... or egg like shells, but also feel/sense and intuit with it .....using the whole auric/cocoon energy as an *awareness sense* to perceive the world(s) in a more energetic/seeing terms. This is such a valuable exercise, what you had written in it, because it activates the 'double' in waking reality terms and shows us how our dreaming reality and waking reality are intrinsically intertwined.
So I suppose in summary ..... witnessing another person's energy field vibration (within ones self ) or seeing that inner energy fire/vibration take 'visionary' forms superimposed on a person's "aura" ... tells a lot of that person in energy terms.
What a difficult subject to try and define !
Hope I made some sense, as I am trying to piece it together ... tangled up in my own contradictions in efforts to describe it.
Artnwere
Nagual Lone Wolf .....
The problem with describing these kind of "altered states" is that because they are beyond the dual mind, therefore they are also beyond any words, and one often then needs to resort to mythological language in order to describe them ..... such as a Thunderbird/Eagle coming and "swallowing" the initiate ... only to "spit" or "****" the initiate back into the body "re-arranged".
Sometimes cultural mixing and matching works, other times it doesn't and we run into contradictions ....
Did just recently find your thread: Defining the Tonal and Nagual ....p222.ezboard.com/fsorcery...ID=3.topic
..... and I suppose it is this .... your description of the tonal then; - which I have associated with and as the "other dimensional double".
In ordinary everyday reality; - how I see this "other dimensional double" is:
On Western, (white) people I sometimes see a superimposed image upon a person, but from another; - past era, therefore I have associated this superimposed image with that person's past life ..... and if I turn my head from the image .... I sometimes see a past 'scene' unfolding with that superimposed image in it.
In many ways the person now still acts from the energy (or subconscious or "dreaming") patterns of that past. Therefore I suppose "fate" fits that description well, because who the person was then will very much determine who the person is or has a potential to be in this life .... now.
On indigenous people though, the superimposed image that I see upon them, is that of their Totem Animal, so if I look at the person I am looking at their human form, but if I engage my "dreaming ..... or second attention" (?) .... the animal is them. Like switching from looking to seeing .... back and fourth.
In Finno-Ugric/Siberian terms .... this 'superimposed image' is the double. It is also called "T-h-e Self" or "The Shadow Soul". The term "Shadow" in turn means a protector or a guardian .... as the shadow is seen sheltering the physical body-mind ....
When a person gets dramatised the "soul loss" refers to this .... (what we term as) 'the double' ....
The "Dobbelganger" is also an apt description of this ...... as many times a 'vision' .... or an energetic feeling of the ... (what we term as 'double') can be seen or felt present prior to a person's arrival say; - because a person is able to project this 'double' ahead of themselves, in it's human or in it's totem animal form.
In "Shamanicing" it is the energy .... heat .... shine ... or fire of this double, (in animal form also termed as the inner energy nature of a person) ... a Shaman raises in order to magnetize communications with intended spirits of other dimensions .....
The more that 'double' starts to shine .... the more it starts to attract/magnetize Spirit Energy and Spirit manifestations.
Therefore the heightened/shining energy of this 'double' is also seen as a persons 'ticket' (& personal power) to access and utilize (impersonal interconnectedness) energy ....I mean, that's the point in Siberian Shamanism .... to be able to handle fire ..... non-dual energy.
Animals also possess a "Shadow Soul" f.e.x. a Dingo's "shadow soul" is very, very cat-like. Looking at a dingo one is looking at it's wolf/dog-like form, but witnessing the inner energy (patterning) of a dingo, i.e. seeing the superimposed image upon the dingo or in other words seeing the inner energy projected into the auric field of the dingo ....one sees a cat ! Therefore the dingo's behaviour is governed by cat rather than wolf/dog-like behaviour (dingoes even purr !). And if I was to "shape shift" it is this inner energy that I would first identify with ... tune into .... before projecting .... (Though I have not as yet learned to shape shift .... not really).
So in many respects, what you Nagual Lone Wolf describe as "Tonal" fits to our understanding of the "other dimensional double", except that we do identify this inner fire energy and it's 'visible' to seeing (projected)form in the auric field as The Self (i.e. the double) and our understanding also is that it is the energy patterns or the 'dreaming' of this inner energy (Self) that does reincarnate.
Seems that we 'project' both the tonal and the nagual qualities to it .... the 'double' being like both, yet neither of these two .... but rather a kind of an energy "middle man".
Maybe my understanding of this 'double' does refer to the "Etheric Body" (?) then, therefore it is connected to the physical body and it's magnetic energy field or aura, and when I mentioned in the beginning of this thread that with indigenous folk communication is more on double-to-double terms .... what I mean is, that at times upon meeting an indigenous person say ... on the street .... we both stop and exchange our news without a word needed to be said, because you can "read" all your answers of a person's inner energy from a persons energy field. As Astral projection is the projection of conscious mind via the etheric double or energy body .... from that etheric double one can shift one's awareness from physical looking to (astral) or trance-like seeing, thus perceiving 2 realities; - the ordinary and the "superimposed realities" within everyday reality. So I guess, this is why my Siberian Ancestors called this (maybe) Etheric Double as The Real Self, because it is a good (impersonal/personal ... both) assemblage point of awareness to identify with in order to communicate with "Universe" in more "energetic terms" & a good point to "shift" from also .......
Found this yogic view on etheric body and shape shifting in the net:
What is shape-shifting? As I understand it---from a yogic point of view---The process is one of thought. While asleep, we all travel out of our physical bodies, but for so many of us there is no memory of this. Sometimes, we may just mistake it for a dream. However, a person with this siddhi, or yogic power, can do this consciously. This involves two different methods entirely. First of all, there is the bi-location effect, where a person is seen miles from where they are. This is the famous Doppelganger, or the etheric double, which really isn't a separate body or sheath, but part of the physical body manifestation. It is a form of shape-shifting, but it is the same image and it is in a subtle form. The other type of shape-shifting, is where the form is more solidified to appear as a normal physical body. This can be done during different periods of time depending on the person. Some yogis have the ability to shift to numerous bodies, and some can take a different form or forms altogether. It all depends on mind control, and the abilities reached in previous incarnations.
Even though here we may be talking about the 'double' in seeming contradictory terms .... still what you wrote in the "Try this" thread shows, that in practice we seem to be doing (or maybe not-doing) a similar thing.
p222.ezboard.com/fsorcery...ID=7.topic
For not only are we able to feel/sense our auric/luminous cocoons ... or egg like shells, but also feel/sense and intuit with it .....using the whole auric/cocoon energy as an *awareness sense* to perceive the world(s) in a more energetic/seeing terms. This is such a valuable exercise, what you had written in it, because it activates the 'double' in waking reality terms and shows us how our dreaming reality and waking reality are intrinsically intertwined.
So I suppose in summary ..... witnessing another person's energy field vibration (within ones self ) or seeing that inner energy fire/vibration take 'visionary' forms superimposed on a person's "aura" ... tells a lot of that person in energy terms.
What a difficult subject to try and define !
Hope I made some sense, as I am trying to piece it together ... tangled up in my own contradictions in efforts to describe it.
Artnwere