12-18-2007, 12:00 AM
"I would suggest that stopping the inner conversation and stopping the world are not equivalent."
No, they are not. The first is an excercise to accomplish the second.
"Carlos accomplished stopping the internal dialogue readily, with a littlw effort for several minutes at a time early on in his apprenticeship, where stopping the world happened later as a climax to a long effort that resulted in "seeing"."
There was an instance in the books when Don Juan said that Carlos had stopped the world. I think it was when they were observing a piece of old cloth caught on a cactus. It seemed to be breathing and looked like a dangerous beast with a beak. Later, when Don Juan was asked by Carlos why he was still speaking about stopping the world as if Carlos hadn't., when earlier he stated that he had, Don Juan said;
"Stopping the world comes a little at a time and then all at once." Small stoppings of the world like the above "optical illusion" example, if given credit as a gift to you from Power or Spirit and allowed to happen, will eventually culminate in a total break-down of your world view. That is the true experience of stopping the world.
It is a true "Initiation" in the full sense of the word.
I believe it to be symbolised by the 32nd path on the Tree of Life. And the "World" card in the Tarot deck. But it may encompass much more than that in qabalistic terms.
The point is there are lower "levels" of this experience.
In the same way, there are "levels" of the extent to which a person has mastered the excercise of stopping the internal dialog. I practiced it for about 1 1/2 years every chance I got. Every waking moment. Whenever I realised I was talking in my head I would immediately turn it off. (Unless, of course I had to communicate with people, etc.)
This, along with the other excercises resulted in my stopping the word.
I doubt that I have reached the full depth of inner silence.
It takes an enormous amount of self-discipline to do this and it does require practice. You get rusty. But, any amount is better than none. It is healthy, both mentally and physically. It should be taught in schools by someone who knows how to do it. It is dangerous.
Once you have stopped the world the first time it is much easier to do it again. You have "Cracked the Cosmic Egg."
I have done this many times. But it does not have to be such a negative experience if you realise that what you first experienced was just the first plane (or sub-plane) just outside of or behind this world we all agree upon.
It is a True spiritual experience, but an experience of a "lower plane" in the whole scheme of things. Not somwhere I would want to spend a lot of time. It is kind of like walking into a "biker bar" wearing a pink shirt.
"Also, mustering a command during mental quietude would be a different accomplishment than simply achieving mental silence."
It is not really "During." It is more like a desire or intent that you hold in your mind before-hand. At least in my experience. I work on a lot of projects in wood and metal fabrication. There are always puzzles and challenges to work out. Also puzzling verses in the Bible that I desire an answer for. These are in the "back of my mind."
The practice of silence can allow the answers to come through. Sometimes as an idea you were not capable of and sometimes it drops on you from an outside source, a conversation or a book just opens to the correct page, etc.
You might argue that that is a whole different catagory and would fall under the umbrella of Reaffirmations from the world around us. Or, for instance if the answer came to mind just at the moment of waking it might fall into the catagory of Dreaming.
But would you recognise these things if you had not practiced stopping the internal dialog? Or would they even have "come through your mind" if your mind was continually blocked with inner conversation?
It is all part of the same tapestry.
Bob
No, they are not. The first is an excercise to accomplish the second.
"Carlos accomplished stopping the internal dialogue readily, with a littlw effort for several minutes at a time early on in his apprenticeship, where stopping the world happened later as a climax to a long effort that resulted in "seeing"."
There was an instance in the books when Don Juan said that Carlos had stopped the world. I think it was when they were observing a piece of old cloth caught on a cactus. It seemed to be breathing and looked like a dangerous beast with a beak. Later, when Don Juan was asked by Carlos why he was still speaking about stopping the world as if Carlos hadn't., when earlier he stated that he had, Don Juan said;
"Stopping the world comes a little at a time and then all at once." Small stoppings of the world like the above "optical illusion" example, if given credit as a gift to you from Power or Spirit and allowed to happen, will eventually culminate in a total break-down of your world view. That is the true experience of stopping the world.
It is a true "Initiation" in the full sense of the word.
I believe it to be symbolised by the 32nd path on the Tree of Life. And the "World" card in the Tarot deck. But it may encompass much more than that in qabalistic terms.
The point is there are lower "levels" of this experience.
In the same way, there are "levels" of the extent to which a person has mastered the excercise of stopping the internal dialog. I practiced it for about 1 1/2 years every chance I got. Every waking moment. Whenever I realised I was talking in my head I would immediately turn it off. (Unless, of course I had to communicate with people, etc.)
This, along with the other excercises resulted in my stopping the word.
I doubt that I have reached the full depth of inner silence.
It takes an enormous amount of self-discipline to do this and it does require practice. You get rusty. But, any amount is better than none. It is healthy, both mentally and physically. It should be taught in schools by someone who knows how to do it. It is dangerous.
Once you have stopped the world the first time it is much easier to do it again. You have "Cracked the Cosmic Egg."
I have done this many times. But it does not have to be such a negative experience if you realise that what you first experienced was just the first plane (or sub-plane) just outside of or behind this world we all agree upon.
It is a True spiritual experience, but an experience of a "lower plane" in the whole scheme of things. Not somwhere I would want to spend a lot of time. It is kind of like walking into a "biker bar" wearing a pink shirt.
"Also, mustering a command during mental quietude would be a different accomplishment than simply achieving mental silence."
It is not really "During." It is more like a desire or intent that you hold in your mind before-hand. At least in my experience. I work on a lot of projects in wood and metal fabrication. There are always puzzles and challenges to work out. Also puzzling verses in the Bible that I desire an answer for. These are in the "back of my mind."
The practice of silence can allow the answers to come through. Sometimes as an idea you were not capable of and sometimes it drops on you from an outside source, a conversation or a book just opens to the correct page, etc.
You might argue that that is a whole different catagory and would fall under the umbrella of Reaffirmations from the world around us. Or, for instance if the answer came to mind just at the moment of waking it might fall into the catagory of Dreaming.
But would you recognise these things if you had not practiced stopping the internal dialog? Or would they even have "come through your mind" if your mind was continually blocked with inner conversation?
It is all part of the same tapestry.
Bob