12-28-2007, 12:00 AM
"I was explaining the political hierarchy of the Christian trinity to someone who wondered if Christians should pray to Jesus, or only to the Fathe."
I believe Jesus said the night of Passover that his disciples were to pray directly to the Father because he went to the Father.
I don't bother myself with the three in one problem. They are One. Beyond that I think maybe it is above our heads.
Another related controversy is whether you pray in Jesus' name. But, who knows what that means? Some think you have to say the words "I pray in Jesus' name" after every prayer.
I just talk to God. He knows where I'm coming from.
"Bob, how would you characterize your explanation of don Juan's teachings above? Is it a matter of crystalizing the tenets as a matter of discussion, as opposed to, say, a matter of personal conviction?"
Both. Whenever you get into a discussion, especially a technical discussion, you have to have your terms defined or you will not be communicating. That was apparent when we were discussing stopping the internal dialog vs. stopping the world. Being that we are discussing abstract principles makes no difference. The concepts are no less real for being abstract.
As far as personal conviction goes, that sounds a bit like "belief" in something unseen or not yet experienced. That is not the case. I am 53 years old, I will be 54 in a few days. That seems and is "abstract" to someone who is in there early 20's. But it is a fact. You can relate to it cause you've been there and know it is an actual thing. And you could probably almost tell I was not a young kid before I even let my age be known to you. Just as I could guess you were also a bit older than 20 before you actually said how old you were.
It is the same with spiritual experience. Stopping the world is only an abstract thing before it happens. And you can tell by the way a person describes it whether they have been through it or not.
So, it is not a conviction, it is a fact. Though it is a "subjective" fact, and so cannot be fully shared with someone who has not gone through it.
Probably akin to having been in combat. People who have, even though they may not have been in the same battles or even the same wars, share a kinship for having had the experience.
Bob
I believe Jesus said the night of Passover that his disciples were to pray directly to the Father because he went to the Father.
I don't bother myself with the three in one problem. They are One. Beyond that I think maybe it is above our heads.
Another related controversy is whether you pray in Jesus' name. But, who knows what that means? Some think you have to say the words "I pray in Jesus' name" after every prayer.
I just talk to God. He knows where I'm coming from.
"Bob, how would you characterize your explanation of don Juan's teachings above? Is it a matter of crystalizing the tenets as a matter of discussion, as opposed to, say, a matter of personal conviction?"
Both. Whenever you get into a discussion, especially a technical discussion, you have to have your terms defined or you will not be communicating. That was apparent when we were discussing stopping the internal dialog vs. stopping the world. Being that we are discussing abstract principles makes no difference. The concepts are no less real for being abstract.
As far as personal conviction goes, that sounds a bit like "belief" in something unseen or not yet experienced. That is not the case. I am 53 years old, I will be 54 in a few days. That seems and is "abstract" to someone who is in there early 20's. But it is a fact. You can relate to it cause you've been there and know it is an actual thing. And you could probably almost tell I was not a young kid before I even let my age be known to you. Just as I could guess you were also a bit older than 20 before you actually said how old you were.
It is the same with spiritual experience. Stopping the world is only an abstract thing before it happens. And you can tell by the way a person describes it whether they have been through it or not.
So, it is not a conviction, it is a fact. Though it is a "subjective" fact, and so cannot be fully shared with someone who has not gone through it.
Probably akin to having been in combat. People who have, even though they may not have been in the same battles or even the same wars, share a kinship for having had the experience.
Bob