04-03-2008, 12:01 AM
(Unregistered) Quote:
Consider for a moment, a man who goes to a psychiatric counselor for help with raging emotional upset within him.
The counselor's strategy is to get the man to talk about his problems. If the man can address his emotional upset, the psychic pressure of his upset will
lessen.
Should he deny, or otherwise be able to suppress his emotions, the psychic pressure from those feelings will increase.
Bob May wrote:
I can understand secrecy having a dangerous edge. There are sayings like "you are only as sick as your secrets" and obsession naturally occurs with
secrecy.
It is said of trauma that when you start to see a story in there that is the beginning of the cure. If one is too deep in trauma one cant make sense of things,
one cant even talk about them well. Things are mixed and make no sense.
Also dont forget that tales have power. You can create and recreate yourself many times in tales just by telling them. This could also be true for the psych.
patient.
******* *******
Quote:
Consider also for a moment, the Christian injunction to do charitible work in secrecy. If a man speaks about his charity out in the open, the psychic
pressure of this virtue will lessen. Should he suppress his charity, it will grow within him. A man will grow more charitable
Yep, sure. Here it is like a safety net for the weak and easily puffed up people. But actually even those that are silent may take comfort in the
fact that had other people known that they would think good of them. If one has this bent in his/her personality, there is no escape from it. Not with hiding
it or by trying to avoid it. The best way is to confront it. Realize it is taking place and do away with it. No games…
A truly good and strong person wouldnt care if he/she is praised or not, it makes no difference to him/her and so would not take special measures to hide it or
to show it.
Of course it might be troublesome for the person so he/she might prefer to be rather out of public view, nothing wrong with that, but taking super great
precautions so that it is a secret, that signals something hidden somewhere…
(I also agree with what Bob May wrote in response to this)
******* *******
Quote:
In all cultures where it has existed, the entire range of human activity we think of as "magic" has been held as secret. The techniques and
practices of the witch grow within "the power of silence". Talking too much can "empty your bag" so to speak.
Sure, speaking too soon can "empty your bag". But it doesn't mean you have to be silent your whole life. Why magic has been a secret
is also so that no power is lost, so that only the select know the secrets. Its like this in every trade.
******* *******
Quote:
Many commenters on magic have indicated a real paranoia of what others might do or think if they knew the secrets of a magical organization.
I propose here, that the real benefit of secrecy is that magic will not exist in the open. That which is kept within us unexpressed grows.
The benefit of secrecy is that magic will not exist in the open? Look where that has got us. I think what CC did with making the secrets public
helped a lot of people all over the world. Had secrets not been revealed many of us would not be where we are today.
Bob May says to this:
Bob May wrote:
Again, I've never thought of it quite like that in regards to secrecy and magic, but it certainly is true with negative emotions, like holding grudges
and forced abstinance from sexual activity. Catholic priest are a good example.
It is true in the negative things, but if we share positive things with positive people they grow. The problem is sharing positive things with not
positive people, that is where the trouble comes from for most people.
******* *******
Quote:
That to which we give naming, shrinks away.
That to witch we give name is born for us... (it does not mean it cannot grow)
Often we can grasp a thing thanks to its name. The importance of the name (even in the bible) is important in many occult practices. Knowing something by its
name gives us a certain power. We can call upon beings that we know by name. Often beings have many names. This may not only put emphasis on their different
qualities, it also shows how people in a specific age/era saw these beings and how the perception of these beings changed. It also makes us aware of the
complexity of these beings.
Sometimes we can better store an experience if we name it. This name would then mirror our experience at that perticular time (we can always rename things
later, after we learn more).
Bob May wrote:
To name is to put borders around something, to define it. What if our definition is only partial? We block ourselves from further learning.
Precisely this is not what should be happening… naming a thing in itself does not block ourselves, we block ourselves. If we dont give names to
things it does not mean we do not block ourselves (but it may even result in the thing eluding us, because we have no way to grasp it).
Quote:
The act of naming things makes things shrink. To know the name of something, to use it in an act of naming, is to diminish it.
This odd convolution is tricky to deal with at first, but it's not a difficult idea. The dynamic is all around us constantly. As the human mind goes
through life naming everything, as we do, it all diminishes.
This is because people are stupid and think that they can label things into cute little folders and after they do so they do not observe them
anymore. A warrior takes nothing for granted, right..?
Quote:
The "quiet mind" technique of stopping the internal dialogue that Carlos wrote about will diminish the naming of the world, giving one an amplified
sense of being.
The "quiet mind" indeed stops the internal dialogue but that does not mean no names are created. It may mean, however, that it
diminishes, though id say if i see something special i am more prone to name it when my mind is quieted (dont know what degree of silence you are talking
about, and there is no way to know i guess), because i realize the speciallity of the things in a stronger way. So you may see a branch hanging from a tree in
normal talking awareness and you just pass it by, seeing it - a branch hanging from a tree. Then you can pass by it in a silent mode and realize how wonderous
and alive it is and then a name for it pops into your head and that is what it is for you from then on, you realize there are many of these types of hanging
branches in the forest. This name is connected from then on to that specific experience and that specific phenomena at that time at that place (not to say you
may not find it then elsewhere and at other times). Now, do you diminish the thing? Dont you rather enlarge it (considered how you looked at it before)? (Also
consider if it is not an enlarging of the self - connected to what is said below)
Quote:
As one names the world around them, it is the self that diminishes. The convolutions never end. The power of silence, or secrecy, as it's sometimes been
called, flips everything.
That's the secret of naming.
I see how one can make the statement of diminishing the thing and diminishing oneself. But we are not diminishing ourselves because at that point
we name what we perceive and in that name is our whole perception. So we cannot diminish ourselves, true we may diminish the thing with our ignorance but had
we not names it the thing would not be more whole to us anyway. So, it does not mean you are diminishing the subject for yourself, because that is how you
perceive it at that moment, BUT this is how one grows. You find something and discover a certain aspect of it, you name this thing with the aid of this aspect,
or the name in your mind gets connected to that aspect. Now you learn further, and learn other aspects of the thing and so you rename the subject that is
named. This is how it should work. As you strive for a better and better understanding, as you get slowly to the wholeness of the thing, your naming also
mirrors this evolution. Its not a bad thing to name something even when one has not grasped the wholeness of the thing one names. Thanks to the names one gets
in connection with it and has a remembrance of the subject.
You know beings have many names, it does not mean that one name diminishes them, it is more like it focuses on a certain aspect of them. Thanks to the many
names one realizes the complexity of the being.
(But you also don't necessarily need to give a new name after you've moved up a level in perceiving the named thing, you just need to reattach the
things you've learned to the old name. Sure for someone else it might seem as the same thing, but for you.. ah, you know better what you all have in
there.. this is why words are so tricky, and communication as well)
Children, that is another topic. Had they not learned to "shrink" things by the society what would they be like? How would they perceive the wordl?
How would they be able to grasp it? Since things happen as they happen, children naturaly learn as they learn, from the other people around them, we may assume
that that is how it naturally is. That they need to get this grasp, even if it "shrink" the world.
******* *******
Quote:
Now there needs to be an exception, or I couldn't tell anyone such things. In a while I'll post about how the exceptions have to happen in order not
to drain off the magic.
Hm?
******* *******
Quote:
We all have secrets. They can work for us or against us, by amplyfying the the secret, generally, if we are unpracticed or unfamiliar with it, having the
opposite effect of what we might desire.
Perhaps you've told everyone at your workplace that you're five years younger than you actually are. Your secret becomes "how old you are".
That secret will speed your aging process. Fortunately you probably didn't have to adamantly insist on your lie, and the effect will be slight.
On the other hand, if you told everyone you were five years older than you actually were, your secret becomes "how young you are", and just like in
the experiment above, your youngness increases.
Denial makes things larger.
Im not sure about this, but if it is like that then id say it is because of your obsession. But surely it depends on the point of view, from where
you look. As in the opposite case you describe.
Anyway, then youd cross off the positive efects of autohypnosis? That when you say to yourself out loud even that you feel good that you actually start to feel
bad? Or rather I guess you mean that when you start saying to other people that you feel good that you start feeling bad . Well, does not work like that for
me thank god. When i feel bad it makes me better when i say so, and when i feel good it makes me better when i say so, or at least does not change my good
feeling (but i dont feel the need to go and tell everybody). This is how things should be in my humble oppinion .
Quote:
Inversion..
Secrecy is one example of the desires of people working against them.
It is said that should a man wish to understand himself, he has to forget about himself, and seek to understand the world around him.
That being said, should a man wish to understand the world around him, he must forget about the world around him, and look within himself for answers.
In other words… forget about his obsession
******* *******
Quote:
Secrecy can be for the safety of those who would apply certain teachings without proper supervision. The dangers of doing certain sorcery applications
improperly are very dangerous!
You hear this very often, a lot of people harbor this idea… However I think it is more dangerous to withhold knowledge than to let it circulate…
If one has a proper account of how to do it, one would not do it improperly. Of course I believe that if you do not have energy required to do something you
just cant do it, no matter what somebody tells you or what you read (I find truth in what DJ said: "if we don't have enough personal power, the most
magnificent piece of wisdom can be revealed to us and that revelation won't make a damn bit of difference.").
Its because knowledge is made secret that false gurus can strive and people do things that lead them eventually to problems.
Quote:
I can understand secrecy having a dangerous edge. There are sayings like "you are only as sick as your secrets" and obsession naturally occurs with
secrecy.
Yep. Id say that obsession may result in secrecy and that secrecy may result in obsession. Of course it can also be said that not being able to
shut up about something is an obsession. As with all thing even with silence and talking the best is to have an equilibrium. A lot of secret societies thought
themselves privileged etc, its not a good way of losing self-importance in those cases. It depends on the bent of ones personality, if one is becoming puffed
up by silence then he/she should talk, if one is puffed up by speaking then he/she should be silent.
Of course Im not saying one should talk about everything, im just challenging the rigid ideas about silence and its great effects. It sure makes no sense to go
on talking about magical things to everyone around you and be a magnet for their attention, remarks of various sorts, etc, that might be quite an energy drain.
But just how much have all the people in power controlled the masses by their power to control information. By putting some things under secrecy the world
changes. The Vatican has a secret library with all sorts of books that only the privileged can access, with texts surely believed to be destroyed long ago on
various topics… Secrets, secrets. They surely have reasons for keeping them secret.
******* *******
Quote:
I know another application of secrecy. It's an imaginary apple. If you try to imagine an apple sitting on your desk, it can be very difficult to hold the
picture of that apple consistently, but if you use a little trick, you can make it a lot easier.
Just make the apple a secret. Lie about it to someone. Ideally, they will argue with you about it, and make it more solid.
You will see that the mental imsge of the apple will be easier to hold in your mind afterwards.
Lie about it? Im not sure if you mean say to somebody there is no apple, or say that there is an apple . Anyhow, id say that bringing the apple
into conversation is what makes it more real, whether you say this or that it helps you focus your attention on the apple.
******* *******
So basically what the Unregistered people here argue is that when you don't tell something it is more real than if you say so. Well, we all know the silent
feeling (joy, fear, falling in love, almost any kind of feeling) of something which changes after we tell it to someone. Id generally say that it is
recommended to have a period of silence after certain experiences in order to take them in. After one has done so, one can talk about it, the taking in can be
invariably long.
A nice DJ quote: "It doesn't matter what one reveals or what one keeps to oneself," he said. "Everything we do, everything we are, rests on
our personal power.
I very much agree with what Vrill says here:
Vrill wrote:
Regarding, secrets. I have had many aperceptions that occur on a non-verbal level. Knowledge comes in many ways and speaking of it is impossible.
The saying "Those who know ... don't tell" is translated incorrectly.
Those who know, can't tell. They want to desperately, but they can't because there are no words for what they know!!!
But actually that's not even entirely true.
There are those with great skill, and they know and can tell and lead others to the truth.
Bob May replies to this:
Bob May wrote:
That is very true. Spiritual things cannot be put into words. Or even if they are, they are interpreted in terms of hard cold matter, so the words lose their
meaning somewhere between the one relating the experience and the listener's understanding.
Id say this connects to what ive said about words and communication above
And I agree with what was said by avadhut and Bob May about teachers and not saying more than is necessary, and with the discreteness.
Consider for a moment, a man who goes to a psychiatric counselor for help with raging emotional upset within him.
The counselor's strategy is to get the man to talk about his problems. If the man can address his emotional upset, the psychic pressure of his upset will
lessen.
Should he deny, or otherwise be able to suppress his emotions, the psychic pressure from those feelings will increase.
Bob May wrote:
I can understand secrecy having a dangerous edge. There are sayings like "you are only as sick as your secrets" and obsession naturally occurs with
secrecy.
It is said of trauma that when you start to see a story in there that is the beginning of the cure. If one is too deep in trauma one cant make sense of things,
one cant even talk about them well. Things are mixed and make no sense.
Also dont forget that tales have power. You can create and recreate yourself many times in tales just by telling them. This could also be true for the psych.
patient.
******* *******
Quote:
Consider also for a moment, the Christian injunction to do charitible work in secrecy. If a man speaks about his charity out in the open, the psychic
pressure of this virtue will lessen. Should he suppress his charity, it will grow within him. A man will grow more charitable
Yep, sure. Here it is like a safety net for the weak and easily puffed up people. But actually even those that are silent may take comfort in the
fact that had other people known that they would think good of them. If one has this bent in his/her personality, there is no escape from it. Not with hiding
it or by trying to avoid it. The best way is to confront it. Realize it is taking place and do away with it. No games…
A truly good and strong person wouldnt care if he/she is praised or not, it makes no difference to him/her and so would not take special measures to hide it or
to show it.
Of course it might be troublesome for the person so he/she might prefer to be rather out of public view, nothing wrong with that, but taking super great
precautions so that it is a secret, that signals something hidden somewhere…
(I also agree with what Bob May wrote in response to this)
******* *******
Quote:
In all cultures where it has existed, the entire range of human activity we think of as "magic" has been held as secret. The techniques and
practices of the witch grow within "the power of silence". Talking too much can "empty your bag" so to speak.
Sure, speaking too soon can "empty your bag". But it doesn't mean you have to be silent your whole life. Why magic has been a secret
is also so that no power is lost, so that only the select know the secrets. Its like this in every trade.
******* *******
Quote:
Many commenters on magic have indicated a real paranoia of what others might do or think if they knew the secrets of a magical organization.
I propose here, that the real benefit of secrecy is that magic will not exist in the open. That which is kept within us unexpressed grows.
The benefit of secrecy is that magic will not exist in the open? Look where that has got us. I think what CC did with making the secrets public
helped a lot of people all over the world. Had secrets not been revealed many of us would not be where we are today.
Bob May says to this:
Bob May wrote:
Again, I've never thought of it quite like that in regards to secrecy and magic, but it certainly is true with negative emotions, like holding grudges
and forced abstinance from sexual activity. Catholic priest are a good example.
It is true in the negative things, but if we share positive things with positive people they grow. The problem is sharing positive things with not
positive people, that is where the trouble comes from for most people.
******* *******
Quote:
That to which we give naming, shrinks away.
That to witch we give name is born for us... (it does not mean it cannot grow)
Often we can grasp a thing thanks to its name. The importance of the name (even in the bible) is important in many occult practices. Knowing something by its
name gives us a certain power. We can call upon beings that we know by name. Often beings have many names. This may not only put emphasis on their different
qualities, it also shows how people in a specific age/era saw these beings and how the perception of these beings changed. It also makes us aware of the
complexity of these beings.
Sometimes we can better store an experience if we name it. This name would then mirror our experience at that perticular time (we can always rename things
later, after we learn more).
Bob May wrote:
To name is to put borders around something, to define it. What if our definition is only partial? We block ourselves from further learning.
Precisely this is not what should be happening… naming a thing in itself does not block ourselves, we block ourselves. If we dont give names to
things it does not mean we do not block ourselves (but it may even result in the thing eluding us, because we have no way to grasp it).
Quote:
The act of naming things makes things shrink. To know the name of something, to use it in an act of naming, is to diminish it.
This odd convolution is tricky to deal with at first, but it's not a difficult idea. The dynamic is all around us constantly. As the human mind goes
through life naming everything, as we do, it all diminishes.
This is because people are stupid and think that they can label things into cute little folders and after they do so they do not observe them
anymore. A warrior takes nothing for granted, right..?
Quote:
The "quiet mind" technique of stopping the internal dialogue that Carlos wrote about will diminish the naming of the world, giving one an amplified
sense of being.
The "quiet mind" indeed stops the internal dialogue but that does not mean no names are created. It may mean, however, that it
diminishes, though id say if i see something special i am more prone to name it when my mind is quieted (dont know what degree of silence you are talking
about, and there is no way to know i guess), because i realize the speciallity of the things in a stronger way. So you may see a branch hanging from a tree in
normal talking awareness and you just pass it by, seeing it - a branch hanging from a tree. Then you can pass by it in a silent mode and realize how wonderous
and alive it is and then a name for it pops into your head and that is what it is for you from then on, you realize there are many of these types of hanging
branches in the forest. This name is connected from then on to that specific experience and that specific phenomena at that time at that place (not to say you
may not find it then elsewhere and at other times). Now, do you diminish the thing? Dont you rather enlarge it (considered how you looked at it before)? (Also
consider if it is not an enlarging of the self - connected to what is said below)
Quote:
As one names the world around them, it is the self that diminishes. The convolutions never end. The power of silence, or secrecy, as it's sometimes been
called, flips everything.
That's the secret of naming.
I see how one can make the statement of diminishing the thing and diminishing oneself. But we are not diminishing ourselves because at that point
we name what we perceive and in that name is our whole perception. So we cannot diminish ourselves, true we may diminish the thing with our ignorance but had
we not names it the thing would not be more whole to us anyway. So, it does not mean you are diminishing the subject for yourself, because that is how you
perceive it at that moment, BUT this is how one grows. You find something and discover a certain aspect of it, you name this thing with the aid of this aspect,
or the name in your mind gets connected to that aspect. Now you learn further, and learn other aspects of the thing and so you rename the subject that is
named. This is how it should work. As you strive for a better and better understanding, as you get slowly to the wholeness of the thing, your naming also
mirrors this evolution. Its not a bad thing to name something even when one has not grasped the wholeness of the thing one names. Thanks to the names one gets
in connection with it and has a remembrance of the subject.
You know beings have many names, it does not mean that one name diminishes them, it is more like it focuses on a certain aspect of them. Thanks to the many
names one realizes the complexity of the being.
(But you also don't necessarily need to give a new name after you've moved up a level in perceiving the named thing, you just need to reattach the
things you've learned to the old name. Sure for someone else it might seem as the same thing, but for you.. ah, you know better what you all have in
there.. this is why words are so tricky, and communication as well)
Children, that is another topic. Had they not learned to "shrink" things by the society what would they be like? How would they perceive the wordl?
How would they be able to grasp it? Since things happen as they happen, children naturaly learn as they learn, from the other people around them, we may assume
that that is how it naturally is. That they need to get this grasp, even if it "shrink" the world.
******* *******
Quote:
Now there needs to be an exception, or I couldn't tell anyone such things. In a while I'll post about how the exceptions have to happen in order not
to drain off the magic.
Hm?
******* *******
Quote:
We all have secrets. They can work for us or against us, by amplyfying the the secret, generally, if we are unpracticed or unfamiliar with it, having the
opposite effect of what we might desire.
Perhaps you've told everyone at your workplace that you're five years younger than you actually are. Your secret becomes "how old you are".
That secret will speed your aging process. Fortunately you probably didn't have to adamantly insist on your lie, and the effect will be slight.
On the other hand, if you told everyone you were five years older than you actually were, your secret becomes "how young you are", and just like in
the experiment above, your youngness increases.
Denial makes things larger.
Im not sure about this, but if it is like that then id say it is because of your obsession. But surely it depends on the point of view, from where
you look. As in the opposite case you describe.
Anyway, then youd cross off the positive efects of autohypnosis? That when you say to yourself out loud even that you feel good that you actually start to feel
bad? Or rather I guess you mean that when you start saying to other people that you feel good that you start feeling bad . Well, does not work like that for
me thank god. When i feel bad it makes me better when i say so, and when i feel good it makes me better when i say so, or at least does not change my good
feeling (but i dont feel the need to go and tell everybody). This is how things should be in my humble oppinion .
Quote:
Inversion..
Secrecy is one example of the desires of people working against them.
It is said that should a man wish to understand himself, he has to forget about himself, and seek to understand the world around him.
That being said, should a man wish to understand the world around him, he must forget about the world around him, and look within himself for answers.
In other words… forget about his obsession
******* *******
Quote:
Secrecy can be for the safety of those who would apply certain teachings without proper supervision. The dangers of doing certain sorcery applications
improperly are very dangerous!
You hear this very often, a lot of people harbor this idea… However I think it is more dangerous to withhold knowledge than to let it circulate…
If one has a proper account of how to do it, one would not do it improperly. Of course I believe that if you do not have energy required to do something you
just cant do it, no matter what somebody tells you or what you read (I find truth in what DJ said: "if we don't have enough personal power, the most
magnificent piece of wisdom can be revealed to us and that revelation won't make a damn bit of difference.").
Its because knowledge is made secret that false gurus can strive and people do things that lead them eventually to problems.
Quote:
I can understand secrecy having a dangerous edge. There are sayings like "you are only as sick as your secrets" and obsession naturally occurs with
secrecy.
Yep. Id say that obsession may result in secrecy and that secrecy may result in obsession. Of course it can also be said that not being able to
shut up about something is an obsession. As with all thing even with silence and talking the best is to have an equilibrium. A lot of secret societies thought
themselves privileged etc, its not a good way of losing self-importance in those cases. It depends on the bent of ones personality, if one is becoming puffed
up by silence then he/she should talk, if one is puffed up by speaking then he/she should be silent.
Of course Im not saying one should talk about everything, im just challenging the rigid ideas about silence and its great effects. It sure makes no sense to go
on talking about magical things to everyone around you and be a magnet for their attention, remarks of various sorts, etc, that might be quite an energy drain.
But just how much have all the people in power controlled the masses by their power to control information. By putting some things under secrecy the world
changes. The Vatican has a secret library with all sorts of books that only the privileged can access, with texts surely believed to be destroyed long ago on
various topics… Secrets, secrets. They surely have reasons for keeping them secret.
******* *******
Quote:
I know another application of secrecy. It's an imaginary apple. If you try to imagine an apple sitting on your desk, it can be very difficult to hold the
picture of that apple consistently, but if you use a little trick, you can make it a lot easier.
Just make the apple a secret. Lie about it to someone. Ideally, they will argue with you about it, and make it more solid.
You will see that the mental imsge of the apple will be easier to hold in your mind afterwards.
Lie about it? Im not sure if you mean say to somebody there is no apple, or say that there is an apple . Anyhow, id say that bringing the apple
into conversation is what makes it more real, whether you say this or that it helps you focus your attention on the apple.
******* *******
So basically what the Unregistered people here argue is that when you don't tell something it is more real than if you say so. Well, we all know the silent
feeling (joy, fear, falling in love, almost any kind of feeling) of something which changes after we tell it to someone. Id generally say that it is
recommended to have a period of silence after certain experiences in order to take them in. After one has done so, one can talk about it, the taking in can be
invariably long.
A nice DJ quote: "It doesn't matter what one reveals or what one keeps to oneself," he said. "Everything we do, everything we are, rests on
our personal power.
I very much agree with what Vrill says here:
Vrill wrote:
Regarding, secrets. I have had many aperceptions that occur on a non-verbal level. Knowledge comes in many ways and speaking of it is impossible.
The saying "Those who know ... don't tell" is translated incorrectly.
Those who know, can't tell. They want to desperately, but they can't because there are no words for what they know!!!
But actually that's not even entirely true.
There are those with great skill, and they know and can tell and lead others to the truth.
Bob May replies to this:
Bob May wrote:
That is very true. Spiritual things cannot be put into words. Or even if they are, they are interpreted in terms of hard cold matter, so the words lose their
meaning somewhere between the one relating the experience and the listener's understanding.
Id say this connects to what ive said about words and communication above
And I agree with what was said by avadhut and Bob May about teachers and not saying more than is necessary, and with the discreteness.