04-27-2011, 12:00 AM
lex icon wrote:
I would say it enables us to experience either second or third attention. Which we experience is dependent upon what we believe and/or what we have experienced previously. Bob
DJ seems to be saying that 3rd attention depends on the wings of perception unfolding after the bubble of perception is cracked and has little if anything to do with belief.
To be born from above is a prerequisite of either "seeing" or "entering" the Kingdom.To "stop the internal dialog" is a prerequisite of experiencing either the "second attention" or "third attention.""Entering" is beyond "Seeing" the Kingdom.The "third attention" is beyond the "second attention."
Being totally immersed in the "second attention" is stopping the world. It is the first initiation of the sorcerer's apprentice. It is the goal of the apprentice as such. When an apprentice is "initiated" he/she becomes an "initiate." In this particular case, a "sorcerer." Something new has begun. This world of sorcerers (second attention) is "self reflecting." The elements of the Tonal reflect back what is believed by the initiate.Being Baptised in water (the experience, not the ceremony) is the same.
Correct me if I am wrong but you seem to accept what DJ is saying about the 2 views being descriptions and are really suggesting that if they are descriptions as DJ says then the way past the descriptions is to stop the internal dialogue.
That is the trick. The subterfuge was to hide the fact that the most important element of the teachings was "stopping the internal dialog.""Stopping the internal dialog is, the key to the sorcerer's world," he said. The rest of the activities are only props; all they do is accelerate the effect of stopping the internal dialog."He said there were two major activities or techniques used to accelerate the stopping of the internal dialog:erasing personal history and dreaming..."
But if that is what you mean (don’t want to put words in your mouth) we must remember that DJ taught CC about stopping the internal dialogue, which CC did on many occasions, long before Genaro cracked his bubble of perception.
Then reading what you said;
When I stopped the world I was in an unbelieveably chaotic state for several weeks. Living in two worlds at once, (the first and second attentions) and each day it would be a completely different experience.After that I went through an apprenticeship with a Christian Qabalist and had some Spirtual experiences. Some during meditations and some during waking awareness. Bob
You associate this with stopping the world. I associate it with cracking the bubble. All I can say is I totally identify with the living in two “worlds” at once part. That was my experience too. It was acute and continuous for many months before I became accustomed to it.
Don Juan changed his terminology of major elements of his teaching along the way. This is a trick also, in a way, to give us different viewpoints of the same elements of his teachings.I like the terms Average man, Sorcerer, and Man of Knowledge.These percieve the world in First, Second and Third attentions (or "Seeing") respectively.
"..he had rallied my interest around the idea of "seeing," which properly understood, was the act of dealing directly with the "nagual," an act that was an unavoidable end result of the teachings but an unattainable task as a task, per se." "...by making me focus my attention on a pseudo task, learning to "see"...he had outlined the direct encounter with the "nagual.""Here, I believe is a very important key to the entirety of Don Juan's teachings. To "See" is the equivalent to experiencing the Third Attention.It cannot be accomplished as a task. For lack of a better word, it "Falls on You" if you continue in the teachings which all boil down to "Stopping the Internal Dialog."
It used to bother me that whenever Jesus was asked what the Kingdom of heaven is like, he told a parable that didn't say what anything was "like" at all. Then one day it hit me. He was showing how we got there so that those who would get there would recognise what it was when it happened to them.
This is what Don Juan is doing here. "Outlining the encounter with the "nagual,"" so that those who would get there would recognise it when they got there.
Mr 4:26
And he said, So is the kingdom of God, as if a man should cast seed into the ground;
Mr 4:27
And should sleep, and rise night and day, and the seed should spring and grow up, he knoweth not how.
Mr 4:28
For the earth bringeth forth fruit of herself; first the blade, then the ear, after that the full corn in the ear.Again the idea of "..a little at a time,..and then all at once," that Don Juan said applied to "Stopping the World." Only now applied to the "third attention" or "Seeing." The "all at once" comes when you realise that you have been in it for a while and didn't realize it.
I would say it enables us to experience either second or third attention. Which we experience is dependent upon what we believe and/or what we have experienced previously. Bob
DJ seems to be saying that 3rd attention depends on the wings of perception unfolding after the bubble of perception is cracked and has little if anything to do with belief.
To be born from above is a prerequisite of either "seeing" or "entering" the Kingdom.To "stop the internal dialog" is a prerequisite of experiencing either the "second attention" or "third attention.""Entering" is beyond "Seeing" the Kingdom.The "third attention" is beyond the "second attention."
Being totally immersed in the "second attention" is stopping the world. It is the first initiation of the sorcerer's apprentice. It is the goal of the apprentice as such. When an apprentice is "initiated" he/she becomes an "initiate." In this particular case, a "sorcerer." Something new has begun. This world of sorcerers (second attention) is "self reflecting." The elements of the Tonal reflect back what is believed by the initiate.Being Baptised in water (the experience, not the ceremony) is the same.
Correct me if I am wrong but you seem to accept what DJ is saying about the 2 views being descriptions and are really suggesting that if they are descriptions as DJ says then the way past the descriptions is to stop the internal dialogue.
That is the trick. The subterfuge was to hide the fact that the most important element of the teachings was "stopping the internal dialog.""Stopping the internal dialog is, the key to the sorcerer's world," he said. The rest of the activities are only props; all they do is accelerate the effect of stopping the internal dialog."He said there were two major activities or techniques used to accelerate the stopping of the internal dialog:erasing personal history and dreaming..."
But if that is what you mean (don’t want to put words in your mouth) we must remember that DJ taught CC about stopping the internal dialogue, which CC did on many occasions, long before Genaro cracked his bubble of perception.
Then reading what you said;
When I stopped the world I was in an unbelieveably chaotic state for several weeks. Living in two worlds at once, (the first and second attentions) and each day it would be a completely different experience.After that I went through an apprenticeship with a Christian Qabalist and had some Spirtual experiences. Some during meditations and some during waking awareness. Bob
You associate this with stopping the world. I associate it with cracking the bubble. All I can say is I totally identify with the living in two “worlds” at once part. That was my experience too. It was acute and continuous for many months before I became accustomed to it.
Don Juan changed his terminology of major elements of his teaching along the way. This is a trick also, in a way, to give us different viewpoints of the same elements of his teachings.I like the terms Average man, Sorcerer, and Man of Knowledge.These percieve the world in First, Second and Third attentions (or "Seeing") respectively.
"..he had rallied my interest around the idea of "seeing," which properly understood, was the act of dealing directly with the "nagual," an act that was an unavoidable end result of the teachings but an unattainable task as a task, per se." "...by making me focus my attention on a pseudo task, learning to "see"...he had outlined the direct encounter with the "nagual.""Here, I believe is a very important key to the entirety of Don Juan's teachings. To "See" is the equivalent to experiencing the Third Attention.It cannot be accomplished as a task. For lack of a better word, it "Falls on You" if you continue in the teachings which all boil down to "Stopping the Internal Dialog."
It used to bother me that whenever Jesus was asked what the Kingdom of heaven is like, he told a parable that didn't say what anything was "like" at all. Then one day it hit me. He was showing how we got there so that those who would get there would recognise what it was when it happened to them.
This is what Don Juan is doing here. "Outlining the encounter with the "nagual,"" so that those who would get there would recognise it when they got there.
Mr 4:26
And he said, So is the kingdom of God, as if a man should cast seed into the ground;
Mr 4:27
And should sleep, and rise night and day, and the seed should spring and grow up, he knoweth not how.
Mr 4:28
For the earth bringeth forth fruit of herself; first the blade, then the ear, after that the full corn in the ear.Again the idea of "..a little at a time,..and then all at once," that Don Juan said applied to "Stopping the World." Only now applied to the "third attention" or "Seeing." The "all at once" comes when you realise that you have been in it for a while and didn't realize it.