05-05-2011, 12:00 AM
lex icon wrote:
Good stuff Bob!
If, in our "philosophy", we do not have an explanation that says there is something beyond the second attention we will not experience the third. Bob
That certainly seems to be the case with CC. However here is an example contrary to this. Once I had gone through ALL the stages outlined by St John of The Cross something happened to me that was outside of the philosophy and tradition I was associated with.
Maybe I didn't state my point vey clearly here. I was using the word Explanation in Don Juan's way of using it. In Don Juan's explanation there was "Something" beyond second attention. Man of knowledge, third attention etc.And by "philosophy" I am thinking more of as sum total of your beliefs rather than a specific traditiion. As far as the specific tradition goes, it has to be "open ended," even if what comes after the open endedness is not explained.
In that tradition mystical union is it. There was the goal of christian mysticism. After living this union and living it deeply embedded in life in this world there was a further movement that I knew nothing of at that time and when it happened to me it took me years to get accustomed to it. It took me just a couple of years to even find out what was happening to me.The experience I refer to is the no-self experience associated with Buddhism. Now granted I was barely aware of the Buddhists referring to no-self but at that time I did not think it was an actual experience. I just thought of it as one of their tenets like, “from the beginning no thing”, you know their beliefs. I did not think of it as something available as experience. But that’s the way it usually goes for me. I experience these states often without knowing what they are and then my intellect plays catch up. I think DJ might see this as corroborating earlier movements and regaining or retracing that movement later more knowingly.
That is the way it seems to have worked with me also. I had no idea that Joseph's coat of many colors was an actual spiritual experience. I have not seen it written anywhere. Same with the flood of Noah.That is the same with other experiences that I have had also. But where it is written, it is written in such a way that only after you have had the experience will you recognize the written explanation of the experience.
It is unusual for me to know about a state before hand and then actively pursue it. After I went through the “night or the senses” that St John refers to, and at that time I did not know what it was or that there was such a thing but later was able to read about it and find corroboration for what I had just gone through. It was then while reading about this night of the senses St John then referred to the next stage, the stage, “night of the spirit”. Having been totally unprepared for the night of the senses, I made every effort to avail myself before hand with everything ST John had to say about the night of the spirit. I even went as far as seeking advice about this from the monks at a monastery I frequented, I assumed they knew and could guide me. It turned out they did not really know about this and viewed me as rather desperate concerning this. IT turned out that the actual experience of the night of the spirit was quite unlike what I was reading, it was way more intense, however I did know that I was deep “in it” and did not try to get out of it as I had done previously with the night of the senses.
I hesitate to bring this up because the terms that St John uses are so unfamiliar outside of that tradition and I do not wish to direct people in that direction. I offer this only as an example of knowing what may lie ahead and not knowing what lies ahead but experiencing it anyway.
This relates back to what we have spoken about in the past. I stated that the bible and Qabala was a road map. But this analogy only goes so far. Not knowing what comes next is part of that "open-endedness" that allows us to experience more. So is turning off the internal dialog. Don Juan told Carlos not to dwell on past experiences except as a "reference point."My teacher told me the same thing and said that the answers would come in time and I would "understand." He discouraged me from dwelling on experiences.
So then what is this "reference point" and "understanding" that will come with time??? In reference to what?That is what we are discussing here. "How it works."We see how it works from past experiences being explained or revealed later on. And by comparing these experiences and seeing the pattern repeat itself both in our own several experiences and between comparing your's to mine we have confirmed the conclusions we had already come to individually.
Though we do not understand it at first, it is these patterns that we are looking for. We seem to find ourselves "off the map," so to speak. No one has written this down. What the F--- is happening to me?I had the experience of the Coat of many colors over 20 years ago and have learned a whole lot about it in the past 2 months. I have had other experiences. One in particular, that I have only found hinted at in a Qabalistic "fable" and Valentinus' Gospel of Truth.Good stuff Bob!
If, in our "philosophy", we do not have an explanation that says there is something beyond the second attention we will not experience the third. Bob
That certainly seems to be the case with CC. However here is an example contrary to this. Once I had gone through ALL the stages outlined by St John of The Cross something happened to me that was outside of the philosophy and tradition I was associated with.
Maybe I didn't state my point vey clearly here. I was using the word Explanation in Don Juan's way of using it. In Don Juan's explanation there was "Something" beyond second attention. Man of knowledge, third attention etc.And by "philosophy" I am thinking more of as sum total of your beliefs rather than a specific traditiion. As far as the specific tradition goes, it has to be "open ended," even if what comes after the open endedness is not explained.
In that tradition mystical union is it. There was the goal of christian mysticism. After living this union and living it deeply embedded in life in this world there was a further movement that I knew nothing of at that time and when it happened to me it took me years to get accustomed to it. It took me just a couple of years to even find out what was happening to me.The experience I refer to is the no-self experience associated with Buddhism. Now granted I was barely aware of the Buddhists referring to no-self but at that time I did not think it was an actual experience. I just thought of it as one of their tenets like, “from the beginning no thing”, you know their beliefs. I did not think of it as something available as experience. But that’s the way it usually goes for me. I experience these states often without knowing what they are and then my intellect plays catch up. I think DJ might see this as corroborating earlier movements and regaining or retracing that movement later more knowingly.
That is the way it seems to have worked with me also. I had no idea that Joseph's coat of many colors was an actual spiritual experience. I have not seen it written anywhere. Same with the flood of Noah.That is the same with other experiences that I have had also. But where it is written, it is written in such a way that only after you have had the experience will you recognize the written explanation of the experience.""It is unusual for me to know about a state before hand and then actively pursue it.""
""I hesitate to bring this up because the terms that St John uses are so unfamiliar outside of that tradition and I do not wish to direct people in that direction. I offer this only as an example of knowing what may lie ahead and not knowing what lies ahead but experiencing it anyway.""I call it 20/20 spiritual hindsight. It is not only unusual for you but it is, in my opinion, one of the halmarks or The Halmark of true spiritual experience.Not knowing what lies ahead is the basis. Abraham (belief in the unseen) left Ur of the Chaldees not knowing where he went but by faith was looking for a land that was promised to him, and his seed after him. That "land" is Spiritual awareness.
For thousands of years, in the Middle East, two groups of people have been killing each other over a piece of ground not knowing that what was written about was not a piece of ground at all, but a Spiritual awareness that was promised to those who would venture into the unknown.
They have been and still are killing and dying over an allegory.
Good stuff Bob!
If, in our "philosophy", we do not have an explanation that says there is something beyond the second attention we will not experience the third. Bob
That certainly seems to be the case with CC. However here is an example contrary to this. Once I had gone through ALL the stages outlined by St John of The Cross something happened to me that was outside of the philosophy and tradition I was associated with.
Maybe I didn't state my point vey clearly here. I was using the word Explanation in Don Juan's way of using it. In Don Juan's explanation there was "Something" beyond second attention. Man of knowledge, third attention etc.And by "philosophy" I am thinking more of as sum total of your beliefs rather than a specific traditiion. As far as the specific tradition goes, it has to be "open ended," even if what comes after the open endedness is not explained.
In that tradition mystical union is it. There was the goal of christian mysticism. After living this union and living it deeply embedded in life in this world there was a further movement that I knew nothing of at that time and when it happened to me it took me years to get accustomed to it. It took me just a couple of years to even find out what was happening to me.The experience I refer to is the no-self experience associated with Buddhism. Now granted I was barely aware of the Buddhists referring to no-self but at that time I did not think it was an actual experience. I just thought of it as one of their tenets like, “from the beginning no thing”, you know their beliefs. I did not think of it as something available as experience. But that’s the way it usually goes for me. I experience these states often without knowing what they are and then my intellect plays catch up. I think DJ might see this as corroborating earlier movements and regaining or retracing that movement later more knowingly.
That is the way it seems to have worked with me also. I had no idea that Joseph's coat of many colors was an actual spiritual experience. I have not seen it written anywhere. Same with the flood of Noah.That is the same with other experiences that I have had also. But where it is written, it is written in such a way that only after you have had the experience will you recognize the written explanation of the experience.
It is unusual for me to know about a state before hand and then actively pursue it. After I went through the “night or the senses” that St John refers to, and at that time I did not know what it was or that there was such a thing but later was able to read about it and find corroboration for what I had just gone through. It was then while reading about this night of the senses St John then referred to the next stage, the stage, “night of the spirit”. Having been totally unprepared for the night of the senses, I made every effort to avail myself before hand with everything ST John had to say about the night of the spirit. I even went as far as seeking advice about this from the monks at a monastery I frequented, I assumed they knew and could guide me. It turned out they did not really know about this and viewed me as rather desperate concerning this. IT turned out that the actual experience of the night of the spirit was quite unlike what I was reading, it was way more intense, however I did know that I was deep “in it” and did not try to get out of it as I had done previously with the night of the senses.
I hesitate to bring this up because the terms that St John uses are so unfamiliar outside of that tradition and I do not wish to direct people in that direction. I offer this only as an example of knowing what may lie ahead and not knowing what lies ahead but experiencing it anyway.
This relates back to what we have spoken about in the past. I stated that the bible and Qabala was a road map. But this analogy only goes so far. Not knowing what comes next is part of that "open-endedness" that allows us to experience more. So is turning off the internal dialog. Don Juan told Carlos not to dwell on past experiences except as a "reference point."My teacher told me the same thing and said that the answers would come in time and I would "understand." He discouraged me from dwelling on experiences.
So then what is this "reference point" and "understanding" that will come with time??? In reference to what?That is what we are discussing here. "How it works."We see how it works from past experiences being explained or revealed later on. And by comparing these experiences and seeing the pattern repeat itself both in our own several experiences and between comparing your's to mine we have confirmed the conclusions we had already come to individually.
Though we do not understand it at first, it is these patterns that we are looking for. We seem to find ourselves "off the map," so to speak. No one has written this down. What the F--- is happening to me?I had the experience of the Coat of many colors over 20 years ago and have learned a whole lot about it in the past 2 months. I have had other experiences. One in particular, that I have only found hinted at in a Qabalistic "fable" and Valentinus' Gospel of Truth.Good stuff Bob!
If, in our "philosophy", we do not have an explanation that says there is something beyond the second attention we will not experience the third. Bob
That certainly seems to be the case with CC. However here is an example contrary to this. Once I had gone through ALL the stages outlined by St John of The Cross something happened to me that was outside of the philosophy and tradition I was associated with.
Maybe I didn't state my point vey clearly here. I was using the word Explanation in Don Juan's way of using it. In Don Juan's explanation there was "Something" beyond second attention. Man of knowledge, third attention etc.And by "philosophy" I am thinking more of as sum total of your beliefs rather than a specific traditiion. As far as the specific tradition goes, it has to be "open ended," even if what comes after the open endedness is not explained.
In that tradition mystical union is it. There was the goal of christian mysticism. After living this union and living it deeply embedded in life in this world there was a further movement that I knew nothing of at that time and when it happened to me it took me years to get accustomed to it. It took me just a couple of years to even find out what was happening to me.The experience I refer to is the no-self experience associated with Buddhism. Now granted I was barely aware of the Buddhists referring to no-self but at that time I did not think it was an actual experience. I just thought of it as one of their tenets like, “from the beginning no thing”, you know their beliefs. I did not think of it as something available as experience. But that’s the way it usually goes for me. I experience these states often without knowing what they are and then my intellect plays catch up. I think DJ might see this as corroborating earlier movements and regaining or retracing that movement later more knowingly.
That is the way it seems to have worked with me also. I had no idea that Joseph's coat of many colors was an actual spiritual experience. I have not seen it written anywhere. Same with the flood of Noah.That is the same with other experiences that I have had also. But where it is written, it is written in such a way that only after you have had the experience will you recognize the written explanation of the experience.""It is unusual for me to know about a state before hand and then actively pursue it.""
""I hesitate to bring this up because the terms that St John uses are so unfamiliar outside of that tradition and I do not wish to direct people in that direction. I offer this only as an example of knowing what may lie ahead and not knowing what lies ahead but experiencing it anyway.""I call it 20/20 spiritual hindsight. It is not only unusual for you but it is, in my opinion, one of the halmarks or The Halmark of true spiritual experience.Not knowing what lies ahead is the basis. Abraham (belief in the unseen) left Ur of the Chaldees not knowing where he went but by faith was looking for a land that was promised to him, and his seed after him. That "land" is Spiritual awareness.
For thousands of years, in the Middle East, two groups of people have been killing each other over a piece of ground not knowing that what was written about was not a piece of ground at all, but a Spiritual awareness that was promised to those who would venture into the unknown.
They have been and still are killing and dying over an allegory.