03-20-2011, 12:02 AM
Sedna wrote:
This would seem to support exactly what Gonzo was saying about the stalker, unfortunately, because before you seemed opposed to Gonzo's characterization of it. This is also much more clear of a description, thank you. When the stalker came and did whatever the stalker did, according to what you are saying here, either everything mattered to the people in the group because they were ordinary people who had not yet reached the understanding that nothing matters or it didn't matter because they were warriors and free of going through life ruled and controled by their beliefs and reactions. Is that what you meant?
I'll try to keep my comments general in honor of Datura's request not to dredge up anymore of the past (and I do agree w/ that!). In GENERAL, the tyrant (I will not call her a stalker) created a false reality through several false identities and used those identities to manipulate the emotions of certain individuals. The individuals were under the assumption that the "person" to whom they were speaking was real, flesh-and-blood - when in reality it was an internet sock puppet. This manipulation went so far as to involve phone calls wherein the tyrant altered her voice and pretended to be a man dying of malaria. The "man" then died, leaving this individual to grieve horribly, because she wholly believed "the man" was real - and at this point, the relationship had NOTHING to do with Toltec, stalking, or anything of the sort. The manipulation occurred WHOLLY on a personal level and what I *saw* was that it was nothing more than an ugly game that got SO out of control that the tyrant had no alternative but to "kill" the sock puppet, because plans were being made to meet in person... which, obviously, could never happen. This was not about "stalking" but simply a case of emotional manipulation perpetrated by someone who desperately NEEDED to be LOVED... but could not manifest those qualities in herself, and so created a plethora of false identities. I honestly think even SHE was surprise by how far it went, and that her big "confession" came in the same way a man who knows he's about to be fired conveniently quits the day before the boss actually hands him his pink slip.
Now, a more direct answer to your question about whether it "matters" and on what level... I will simply say that this occurred primarily on a DISCUSSION forum, not on a role-playing forum. Sure, we can be stalked by unscrupulous tyrants anywhere, anytime, but when Gonzo tries to make it seem that this was some noble effort, the underlying reality is that it was just a cheap trick, perpetrated on unsuspecting individuals who had joined an internet forum to talk about Toltec philosophies and other metaphysical pursuits. No one signed on to have some tyrant stalking them, which is really the bottom line as far as I'm concerned. In order for a real benefactor/apprentice relationship to exist, BOTH parties are aware of it from the start.
I noticed that Gonzo also used the old argument, "Why did anyone respond?" Well, it's kinda like this. If a rogue wolf comes into my house and starts ripping up the carpets and pissing on the furniture, I'll probably have to shoot the wolf if I can't convince it to leave on its own. That, too, is a survival mechanism. At first, people responded believing this person's "story" to be real, when I saw through it from Day One and knew it was nothing BUT a "story" (and a badly-written one at that). The details were truly horrendous and so melodramatic as to be unbelievable (the first clue that it WAS unbelievable). But no matter. It wasn't that it "mattered", but that it was disruptive to what had previously been a working group that was making progress. Nothing more than a wayward Agent Smith.
Although, I would agree with you that doing it to teach others ends badly, I think you mentioned once about teaching pigs to fly on your website and you know that just can't end well. Your description also brings me back to my question, because what you are saying would suggest that the people in this group could really help each other, if they were not free now to become free, so why are there no threads of people asking for help stalking something about themselves?
Ah, an idealist! *big smile* Actually, I agree with you completely, and that's why I had my own forum for years. But unfortunately, it really does seem after many years of *seeing* and observation, that almost ANY Toltec-related forum is rife with trolls and troublemakers, Don Wannabes and Don Juanitas. *shrugs* Point being, I think there's a lot of water under the bridge for almost everyone who's ever spent any amount of time on a Toltec forum - so there is a natural hesitation to reveal anything about one's personal life (such as what might be required if one were going to ask for help stalking something about themselves). If someone says, for example, that their mother-in-law is driving them crazy and they want to stalk the reasons behind it, chances are someone on the forum can be counted upon to say, "It's because you're a self-important twerp and all you have to do is stop caring." Whether that is true at a core level is irrelevant, because at the end of the day we are still in humanform (even those who have lost their humanform - yes, another paradox), and let's just say it gets tedious putting on the hip-waders to get through all that kind of bullshit. Heh. But hey... I'm game if you are!
This would seem to support exactly what Gonzo was saying about the stalker, unfortunately, because before you seemed opposed to Gonzo's characterization of it. This is also much more clear of a description, thank you. When the stalker came and did whatever the stalker did, according to what you are saying here, either everything mattered to the people in the group because they were ordinary people who had not yet reached the understanding that nothing matters or it didn't matter because they were warriors and free of going through life ruled and controled by their beliefs and reactions. Is that what you meant?
I'll try to keep my comments general in honor of Datura's request not to dredge up anymore of the past (and I do agree w/ that!). In GENERAL, the tyrant (I will not call her a stalker) created a false reality through several false identities and used those identities to manipulate the emotions of certain individuals. The individuals were under the assumption that the "person" to whom they were speaking was real, flesh-and-blood - when in reality it was an internet sock puppet. This manipulation went so far as to involve phone calls wherein the tyrant altered her voice and pretended to be a man dying of malaria. The "man" then died, leaving this individual to grieve horribly, because she wholly believed "the man" was real - and at this point, the relationship had NOTHING to do with Toltec, stalking, or anything of the sort. The manipulation occurred WHOLLY on a personal level and what I *saw* was that it was nothing more than an ugly game that got SO out of control that the tyrant had no alternative but to "kill" the sock puppet, because plans were being made to meet in person... which, obviously, could never happen. This was not about "stalking" but simply a case of emotional manipulation perpetrated by someone who desperately NEEDED to be LOVED... but could not manifest those qualities in herself, and so created a plethora of false identities. I honestly think even SHE was surprise by how far it went, and that her big "confession" came in the same way a man who knows he's about to be fired conveniently quits the day before the boss actually hands him his pink slip.
Now, a more direct answer to your question about whether it "matters" and on what level... I will simply say that this occurred primarily on a DISCUSSION forum, not on a role-playing forum. Sure, we can be stalked by unscrupulous tyrants anywhere, anytime, but when Gonzo tries to make it seem that this was some noble effort, the underlying reality is that it was just a cheap trick, perpetrated on unsuspecting individuals who had joined an internet forum to talk about Toltec philosophies and other metaphysical pursuits. No one signed on to have some tyrant stalking them, which is really the bottom line as far as I'm concerned. In order for a real benefactor/apprentice relationship to exist, BOTH parties are aware of it from the start.
I noticed that Gonzo also used the old argument, "Why did anyone respond?" Well, it's kinda like this. If a rogue wolf comes into my house and starts ripping up the carpets and pissing on the furniture, I'll probably have to shoot the wolf if I can't convince it to leave on its own. That, too, is a survival mechanism. At first, people responded believing this person's "story" to be real, when I saw through it from Day One and knew it was nothing BUT a "story" (and a badly-written one at that). The details were truly horrendous and so melodramatic as to be unbelievable (the first clue that it WAS unbelievable). But no matter. It wasn't that it "mattered", but that it was disruptive to what had previously been a working group that was making progress. Nothing more than a wayward Agent Smith.
Although, I would agree with you that doing it to teach others ends badly, I think you mentioned once about teaching pigs to fly on your website and you know that just can't end well. Your description also brings me back to my question, because what you are saying would suggest that the people in this group could really help each other, if they were not free now to become free, so why are there no threads of people asking for help stalking something about themselves?
Ah, an idealist! *big smile* Actually, I agree with you completely, and that's why I had my own forum for years. But unfortunately, it really does seem after many years of *seeing* and observation, that almost ANY Toltec-related forum is rife with trolls and troublemakers, Don Wannabes and Don Juanitas. *shrugs* Point being, I think there's a lot of water under the bridge for almost everyone who's ever spent any amount of time on a Toltec forum - so there is a natural hesitation to reveal anything about one's personal life (such as what might be required if one were going to ask for help stalking something about themselves). If someone says, for example, that their mother-in-law is driving them crazy and they want to stalk the reasons behind it, chances are someone on the forum can be counted upon to say, "It's because you're a self-important twerp and all you have to do is stop caring." Whether that is true at a core level is irrelevant, because at the end of the day we are still in humanform (even those who have lost their humanform - yes, another paradox), and let's just say it gets tedious putting on the hip-waders to get through all that kind of bullshit. Heh. But hey... I'm game if you are!