01-16-2008, 12:00 AM
Hi Lightly,
"It's an honor to talk with you."
Don't go there. I am just a guy. No honor to talk with me.
"For me, monotheism is reflective of the human ego, and is not represented in nature."
No, because God is one and you are looking at nature as a bunch of disconnected events or details. But Nature itself is ONE system. Looking at the Ego as a model for God is like looking at a spark and trying to get an idea of fire.
I look at Ego as a symbol of separation from God.
If you are looking for a more applicable symbol for God you could look at the Cosmos as a whole, but better to look beyond it because Cosmos and Nature are manifest and God is not.
"there are at least two forms of reasoning against monotheism, the first being from within monotheism, and the second from the outside looking in.
In the parlance of comparitive religions, the religions of "the book" are said to be "revealed". It might be more accurate to say "necessarily revealed".
That is, without the revelation from deity, there can be no recognition of the deity. This is usually considered to be a logical inference from the assumption that man and nature are fallen.
It is written that "the heavens declare his handywork"
Which they do if looked at as manifestations of God after His/It's own Nature which is perfect Order. A reason for everything and everything in it's proper time and place. A perfectly running machine.
But at a deeper level, both the heaven and the earth show us signs and wonders. Omens and messages etc. Seemingly given to individuals at specific times and places to mean something only to them. Don Juan called them Affirmations or agreements from the world around us Carl Jung called them "Sychronicities."
Sceptics call them "Coincidences", thinking that that means there is no connection between such events. No intent from a higher intelligence which can guide such things. They are mistaken. The word coincidence means and has always meant two things happening at once. It is an engineering term. If certain teeth on two gears of a watch mechanism mesh because of the rotation of those gears, that meshing or meeting of those teeth have been designed to do that. In other words some one or some thing had to design it to do that. So, for some one to use the word coincidence is just another reaffirmation that the designer speaks and gives signs to those who are watching.
The believer and the sceptic are both living in the same world, but the believer is living "in the world, yet not of the world." While the sceptic is living in the world AND of the world.
"..earthly nature is fallen. You cannot deduce God (capital "G") from nature.
This is a world/universe of Death and decay. I'm not sure that it is fallen. It seems to run just fine within those parameters. Leaves fall and rot and fertilize the ground for next years trees. Trees die and make rom for another crop of trees. People die and make room for a new generation.
It is not nature that has fallen but Mankind which has fallen. We were not created to live on this plane, but chose "cause and effect" thinking over pure awareness symbolised by the Tree of the Knowledge of Good and Evil.
The fruit of that tree is Death. We (Adam; which means mankind, not an individual) were warned but not prevented.
"He must be revealed through middlemen."
And who told you that? The middlemen? By "middlemen" I assume you mean religious leaders and clergymen.
Jesus had nothing good to say either to or about them when he was here. He called them liars and hypocrites.
He also warned of the ones to come (those here now) saying;
"And Jesus answered and said unto them, Take heed that no man deceive you. For many shall come in my name, saying, I am Christ; and shall deceive many."
I read this verse many times assuming that it spoke of guys like Koresh and Jim Jones who claimed to be Christ. But it is talking about Christian Ministers who say that Jesus is Christ, but are never-the-less decieving people.
And as far as middlemen goes, Paul clearly states;
"But the anointing which ye have received of him abideth in YOU, and ye NEED NOT THAT ANY MAN TEACH YOU: but as the same anointing TEACHeth YOU of all things, and is truth, and is no lie, and even as it hath taught YOU, ye shall abide in him."
Your so called "middlemen" do not teach this verse in most churches. Mainly because it states that they are not needed. If all Christians realized this, all christian ministers would have to go out and get real jobs.
"Then, looking from the outside in, there is the fascist tendency of monotheism, born of the idea that a single truth rules over everything."
I'll agree with the Facist tendancy thing, but it is a lack of understanding of the book or a complete lack of honor by the person doing and teaching these things.
Jesus had no use or respect for Religion and neither do I.
He said;
"Howbeit in vain do they worship me, teaching for doctrines the commandments of men. For laying aside the commandment of God, ye hold the tradition of men, as the washing of pots and cups: and many other such like things ye do. And he said unto them, Full well ye reject the commandment of God, that ye may keep your own tradition."
I don't know what single Truth you are talking about here.
"It is like the ultimate Republican government. Republicans like small governments. Maybe they'd like a VERY small government with just one person (or being) in charge of everything. It works for Islam."
It is not Republican or Democrat or Islam or "so called Christian."
These are all people wanting what people want. There own ****! Looking out for number one. They are all wrong.
You cannot judge God's wisdom by people who have misused it to their own ends. Politicians are actors. We need Government to protect us from ourselves and others, but politics and politicians are a friggin' cartoon as far as I am concerned.
At least the founders of this country recognized that men are evil and selfish, so they established three branches with somewhat equal power to counteract each other's selfish desires.
"I hope I don't seem argumentative.'
I view it as a discussion, not an argument.
"Order, within itself, may not infer intelligence,.."
I don't know the science of it, but has something to do with systems naturally tending toward chaos.
But I don't need science to back up what I believe, so I haven't looked into that particular aspect.
"..and even if it should, why would it infer only one intelligence?"
You ever experience any sustained order coming out of a committee?
Bob
"It's an honor to talk with you."
Don't go there. I am just a guy. No honor to talk with me.
"For me, monotheism is reflective of the human ego, and is not represented in nature."
No, because God is one and you are looking at nature as a bunch of disconnected events or details. But Nature itself is ONE system. Looking at the Ego as a model for God is like looking at a spark and trying to get an idea of fire.
I look at Ego as a symbol of separation from God.
If you are looking for a more applicable symbol for God you could look at the Cosmos as a whole, but better to look beyond it because Cosmos and Nature are manifest and God is not.
"there are at least two forms of reasoning against monotheism, the first being from within monotheism, and the second from the outside looking in.
In the parlance of comparitive religions, the religions of "the book" are said to be "revealed". It might be more accurate to say "necessarily revealed".
That is, without the revelation from deity, there can be no recognition of the deity. This is usually considered to be a logical inference from the assumption that man and nature are fallen.
It is written that "the heavens declare his handywork"
Which they do if looked at as manifestations of God after His/It's own Nature which is perfect Order. A reason for everything and everything in it's proper time and place. A perfectly running machine.
But at a deeper level, both the heaven and the earth show us signs and wonders. Omens and messages etc. Seemingly given to individuals at specific times and places to mean something only to them. Don Juan called them Affirmations or agreements from the world around us Carl Jung called them "Sychronicities."
Sceptics call them "Coincidences", thinking that that means there is no connection between such events. No intent from a higher intelligence which can guide such things. They are mistaken. The word coincidence means and has always meant two things happening at once. It is an engineering term. If certain teeth on two gears of a watch mechanism mesh because of the rotation of those gears, that meshing or meeting of those teeth have been designed to do that. In other words some one or some thing had to design it to do that. So, for some one to use the word coincidence is just another reaffirmation that the designer speaks and gives signs to those who are watching.
The believer and the sceptic are both living in the same world, but the believer is living "in the world, yet not of the world." While the sceptic is living in the world AND of the world.
"..earthly nature is fallen. You cannot deduce God (capital "G") from nature.
This is a world/universe of Death and decay. I'm not sure that it is fallen. It seems to run just fine within those parameters. Leaves fall and rot and fertilize the ground for next years trees. Trees die and make rom for another crop of trees. People die and make room for a new generation.
It is not nature that has fallen but Mankind which has fallen. We were not created to live on this plane, but chose "cause and effect" thinking over pure awareness symbolised by the Tree of the Knowledge of Good and Evil.
The fruit of that tree is Death. We (Adam; which means mankind, not an individual) were warned but not prevented.
"He must be revealed through middlemen."
And who told you that? The middlemen? By "middlemen" I assume you mean religious leaders and clergymen.
Jesus had nothing good to say either to or about them when he was here. He called them liars and hypocrites.
He also warned of the ones to come (those here now) saying;
"And Jesus answered and said unto them, Take heed that no man deceive you. For many shall come in my name, saying, I am Christ; and shall deceive many."
I read this verse many times assuming that it spoke of guys like Koresh and Jim Jones who claimed to be Christ. But it is talking about Christian Ministers who say that Jesus is Christ, but are never-the-less decieving people.
And as far as middlemen goes, Paul clearly states;
"But the anointing which ye have received of him abideth in YOU, and ye NEED NOT THAT ANY MAN TEACH YOU: but as the same anointing TEACHeth YOU of all things, and is truth, and is no lie, and even as it hath taught YOU, ye shall abide in him."
Your so called "middlemen" do not teach this verse in most churches. Mainly because it states that they are not needed. If all Christians realized this, all christian ministers would have to go out and get real jobs.
"Then, looking from the outside in, there is the fascist tendency of monotheism, born of the idea that a single truth rules over everything."
I'll agree with the Facist tendancy thing, but it is a lack of understanding of the book or a complete lack of honor by the person doing and teaching these things.
Jesus had no use or respect for Religion and neither do I.
He said;
"Howbeit in vain do they worship me, teaching for doctrines the commandments of men. For laying aside the commandment of God, ye hold the tradition of men, as the washing of pots and cups: and many other such like things ye do. And he said unto them, Full well ye reject the commandment of God, that ye may keep your own tradition."
I don't know what single Truth you are talking about here.
"It is like the ultimate Republican government. Republicans like small governments. Maybe they'd like a VERY small government with just one person (or being) in charge of everything. It works for Islam."
It is not Republican or Democrat or Islam or "so called Christian."
These are all people wanting what people want. There own ****! Looking out for number one. They are all wrong.
You cannot judge God's wisdom by people who have misused it to their own ends. Politicians are actors. We need Government to protect us from ourselves and others, but politics and politicians are a friggin' cartoon as far as I am concerned.
At least the founders of this country recognized that men are evil and selfish, so they established three branches with somewhat equal power to counteract each other's selfish desires.
"I hope I don't seem argumentative.'
I view it as a discussion, not an argument.
"Order, within itself, may not infer intelligence,.."
I don't know the science of it, but has something to do with systems naturally tending toward chaos.
But I don't need science to back up what I believe, so I haven't looked into that particular aspect.
"..and even if it should, why would it infer only one intelligence?"
You ever experience any sustained order coming out of a committee?
Bob