01-31-2007, 12:00 AM
Hi Vrill,
"I don't think it's a literal object, but a powerful archetype for all of our aspirations, whether Christian or non-Christian."
I agree completely. It is not a literal object. But what makes you think that all of our aspirations are not encompassed by the teachings of Christ?
The Grail as a cup was there the night that the promise was given that "they would be one even as Jesus and the Father were one". This is the importance of the Grail stories. That that promise has already come to pass. Union with the source of all. To believe that prayer of Jesus is to walk in constant "communion" or "communication with"
the creator.
"The story was originally a Celtic Myth and changed or was adapted as Britain's Celts became Christianized, but the story was not the vehicle. There was already a plate and a hamper in 13 Treasures of Britain Was one of those the original Grail? Nobody knows!
Because the Bardic tradition of Wales and Cornwall is an oral tradition."
I won't agree or disagree as to whether it was written down first in Ogham on stone or Hebrew. It doesn't matter. All ancient traditions were first oral and later written down. That the Celts would have the same needs and aspirations as the rest of humanity should be no suprise. I am of Celtic blood myself. No argument there. The question is were those aspirations met with the coming of Jesus and what he did? I believe that they were. So did the Galations of the New Testament. They were a Gaelic speaking people.
"It is an Archetype for the Eternal Feminine and the Receptive."
Again I agree completely. That is a very broad subject, though. I see the Grail in it's context of the typical Grail legends Primarily as symbolic of our realization of the changing of our understanding from one of being "under the Law" to one of "under Grace". In other words that the veil which separated us from the Creator has been removed. That veil was symbolised by the veil that separated the "Holy of Holies" from being accessed by the people in Solomon's temple. That veil was torn (specifically) from "top to bottom" at the crucifixion. Signifying that it was God's doing.
As far as the "divine feminine" or "receptivity" goes,that is covered in many ways;
The "silence" into which the first word was spoken.
The "waters" over which the Spirit of the Elohim "hovered" or "moved" in the Genesis Creation narative.
The "good ground" of the "parable of the sower".
The "Shekinah" or divine presence that hovered over The "Ark of the Covenant" or "Mercy Seat".
The "Bride of Christ" which is the True Church.
Like I said the Divine Feminine is a very broad subject.
For me the most important element to it is that it is the receptivity of "Divine Influence" which is the definition of Grace.
"How much reading have you done into Grail lore?
I've done a lot of research and it's pretty baffling, so I don't see how a fine collection of scriptures can prove out anything."
I've read quite a few books on it years ago. But my way of reading those stories is a bit different than you may assume. I am not looking for any solid cup or celtic stone, platter or horn of plenty. I believe that all of those legends along with certain Egyptian, Greek and even some Native American prophecies have all been fulfilled with the coming of Christ.
It is baffling in the respect that people try to fit spiritual truths into a material framework. You even find that specific problem within the Grail stories themselves.
When the Knights left Camelot to begin this new quest, they were completely baffled. Especially Gawain, if I remember correctly. He couldn't find an adventure or any action "to save his life". He was used to just walking out of a castle and runnning into a fight or a damsel in distress or a green knight to give him a hard time.
That, which I just described IS a spiritual Truth which is hidden within the Grail story. Those stories were written (maybe not all, but some) by Initiates of the Western Mystery Schools. Students of the Kabbalah and Mysteries contained in the Bible.
You will notice that the "background scenery" in those stories was very "Catholic"; lots of monks and nuns in very flattering roles. I believe those stories were written that way purposefully in order to keep the "powers that be", (which was, at that time, the Catholic Church), from destroying those books. The same thing was done with the Tarot cards. They posed as "playing cards" to keep them safe from destruction right under the noses of those who would have destroyed them.
"As he dies the Grail is revealed to him, as it is to all true Knights of the Grail."
And so it is with all opening of awareness. We must die to who we are to become somthing other. Or as my teacher used to say; "you have to forget everything you thought you knew."
"No man can see God and live."
This has to do with what the Kabbalah refers to as "Touching with Power."
You see the difference between Galahad's peaceful experience with attaining to the Grail and Lancelot's experience. Though Galahad did die, it was a peaceful giving up willingly of his own life.
Lancelot, on the other hand did not even tough it, but just glimpsed it through a window and suffered a burning in his head as the heat from "a thousand candles in his head", I think the story went something like that.
The difference was that Lancelot was guilt ridden. (Under the Law) and Galahad was innocent (under Grace).
The "Baptism of Fire" in the Bible. The "Kundalini" in India.
Same thing. It is a cleansing that can destroy from a source of Power that is as capable of killing as it is of performing miracles.
That is the Grail. That is the goal of many cultures and many on this list whether they know it or not.
Bob
"I don't think it's a literal object, but a powerful archetype for all of our aspirations, whether Christian or non-Christian."
I agree completely. It is not a literal object. But what makes you think that all of our aspirations are not encompassed by the teachings of Christ?
The Grail as a cup was there the night that the promise was given that "they would be one even as Jesus and the Father were one". This is the importance of the Grail stories. That that promise has already come to pass. Union with the source of all. To believe that prayer of Jesus is to walk in constant "communion" or "communication with"
the creator.
"The story was originally a Celtic Myth and changed or was adapted as Britain's Celts became Christianized, but the story was not the vehicle. There was already a plate and a hamper in 13 Treasures of Britain Was one of those the original Grail? Nobody knows!
Because the Bardic tradition of Wales and Cornwall is an oral tradition."
I won't agree or disagree as to whether it was written down first in Ogham on stone or Hebrew. It doesn't matter. All ancient traditions were first oral and later written down. That the Celts would have the same needs and aspirations as the rest of humanity should be no suprise. I am of Celtic blood myself. No argument there. The question is were those aspirations met with the coming of Jesus and what he did? I believe that they were. So did the Galations of the New Testament. They were a Gaelic speaking people.
"It is an Archetype for the Eternal Feminine and the Receptive."
Again I agree completely. That is a very broad subject, though. I see the Grail in it's context of the typical Grail legends Primarily as symbolic of our realization of the changing of our understanding from one of being "under the Law" to one of "under Grace". In other words that the veil which separated us from the Creator has been removed. That veil was symbolised by the veil that separated the "Holy of Holies" from being accessed by the people in Solomon's temple. That veil was torn (specifically) from "top to bottom" at the crucifixion. Signifying that it was God's doing.
As far as the "divine feminine" or "receptivity" goes,that is covered in many ways;
The "silence" into which the first word was spoken.
The "waters" over which the Spirit of the Elohim "hovered" or "moved" in the Genesis Creation narative.
The "good ground" of the "parable of the sower".
The "Shekinah" or divine presence that hovered over The "Ark of the Covenant" or "Mercy Seat".
The "Bride of Christ" which is the True Church.
Like I said the Divine Feminine is a very broad subject.
For me the most important element to it is that it is the receptivity of "Divine Influence" which is the definition of Grace.
"How much reading have you done into Grail lore?
I've done a lot of research and it's pretty baffling, so I don't see how a fine collection of scriptures can prove out anything."
I've read quite a few books on it years ago. But my way of reading those stories is a bit different than you may assume. I am not looking for any solid cup or celtic stone, platter or horn of plenty. I believe that all of those legends along with certain Egyptian, Greek and even some Native American prophecies have all been fulfilled with the coming of Christ.
It is baffling in the respect that people try to fit spiritual truths into a material framework. You even find that specific problem within the Grail stories themselves.
When the Knights left Camelot to begin this new quest, they were completely baffled. Especially Gawain, if I remember correctly. He couldn't find an adventure or any action "to save his life". He was used to just walking out of a castle and runnning into a fight or a damsel in distress or a green knight to give him a hard time.
That, which I just described IS a spiritual Truth which is hidden within the Grail story. Those stories were written (maybe not all, but some) by Initiates of the Western Mystery Schools. Students of the Kabbalah and Mysteries contained in the Bible.
You will notice that the "background scenery" in those stories was very "Catholic"; lots of monks and nuns in very flattering roles. I believe those stories were written that way purposefully in order to keep the "powers that be", (which was, at that time, the Catholic Church), from destroying those books. The same thing was done with the Tarot cards. They posed as "playing cards" to keep them safe from destruction right under the noses of those who would have destroyed them.
"As he dies the Grail is revealed to him, as it is to all true Knights of the Grail."
And so it is with all opening of awareness. We must die to who we are to become somthing other. Or as my teacher used to say; "you have to forget everything you thought you knew."
"No man can see God and live."
This has to do with what the Kabbalah refers to as "Touching with Power."
You see the difference between Galahad's peaceful experience with attaining to the Grail and Lancelot's experience. Though Galahad did die, it was a peaceful giving up willingly of his own life.
Lancelot, on the other hand did not even tough it, but just glimpsed it through a window and suffered a burning in his head as the heat from "a thousand candles in his head", I think the story went something like that.
The difference was that Lancelot was guilt ridden. (Under the Law) and Galahad was innocent (under Grace).
The "Baptism of Fire" in the Bible. The "Kundalini" in India.
Same thing. It is a cleansing that can destroy from a source of Power that is as capable of killing as it is of performing miracles.
That is the Grail. That is the goal of many cultures and many on this list whether they know it or not.
Bob