09-28-2010, 12:00 AM
Lex wrote : "Fool, could you please quote a little to give some insight regarding this?"
Here's a little from Namkhai Norbu's lecture that i hope will help. But the whole lecture is worth a reading.
[...]Their principle is something very simple. If one does not have thoughts, for example, then the object of thought does not exist. If there is no object, then there is also no thought. That is to say, both are relative. But when both are relative you find yourself in the absolute condition. This is not a way of proceeding through a method of reasoning which seeks to define or carry one to nothingness, sunyata. But in the non-gradual approach one attempts to find oneself through practice, experientially, in the non-dual, and this is what they meant by finding oneself in a state undisturbed by thought, which is the genuinely absolute truth or condition. In fact the system of Haxan insisted a great deal on this concept; he explained that if one finds oneself in such a condition, then one has no need of a teaching, of a method, or a rule at all. Note : if one finds oneself in that condition. Then, he continues, if one finds oneself in that condition and a thought arises, good and evil are the same thing.[...]
[...]On this point the Zogqen teaching is very similar to that of the Chinese Ch’an Buddhists. In the Zogqen teachings, too, there exists this same explanation of the relativity of good and bad. But this does not mean in Zogqen that one neglects the relative condition. As I said, if you find yourself in this absolute condition; but if you do not fond yourself in this condition, you obviously do not just neglect relative matters. Thus, one can understand that the principle method of Zen is a way to find yourself in the absolute condition. This principle is a common element between Chines Buddhism and Zogqen. But you must not therefore think they are one and the same thing. You must never forget that the two methods are different. We have already spoken of one as the way of self-liberation and the other as the path of renunciation. From the beginning, in principle, these two methods are very different.
When we speak of a teaching, a teaching always has a basis, then its path, and then its realization or outcome. The Zogqen teaching has also been called the teaching of self-perfectedness. This refers to the individual himself as self-perfected. The goal of the Zogqen teaching is not to arrive at the point of sunyata or void. In sutric Buddhism, in general the aim is sunyata or void, which means to aim oneself at what we call the absolute truth.[...]
[...]Tantrism in general is a path of transformation. It is not a path of renunciation. When there is a method for transforming things, it also means there is a method for integrating them.[...]When this transformation has become real, then sunyata, the void, has automatically been realized. It is not that sunyata, void, is a target at which one must aim, toward which one must direct oneself. It is rather that there is more to sunyata than the emptiness of the sutras; there is already a living manifestation. Then, through the capacity to have this manifestation present, that is, through the manifestation of the mandala, the dimension of peaceful and wrathful divinities, benefit is given to other beings. This is particular to the way of transformation, Tantrism.
From the point of view of Zogqen, however, this too is a form of gradual path, because in the teaching of Zogqen the principle is that of self-perfectedness. Self-perfectedness means that the so-called objective is nothing else than the manifestation of the energy of the primordial state of the individual himself. An individual who practices Zogqen must possess clear knowledge of the principle of energy and what it means. The principle of the Zogqen teaching is the self-perfectedness, the already-being-perfect of every individual. Another way of saying this is that the primordial state of the individual, one’s actual condition, is explained as having essence, nature, and energy. Through these three, the essence, nature and energy, it is also explained how the three bodies, trikaya, ultimately manifest themselves. This manifestation is explained through what we speak of as energy. The way of manifesting energy can be either as subject or as object. In this regard we speak of zal (rtsal) and rolba (rol pa), two ways in which energy can manifest. Just having an intellectual concept of energy is not enough, but one actually applies this knowledge of energy in practice. Through making use of one’s own energy, one arrives at what we call “total realization”. Thus, when we speak of Zen and Zogqen, it is obvious that these two methods are very different and not to be confused with one another.[...]
Here's a little from Namkhai Norbu's lecture that i hope will help. But the whole lecture is worth a reading.
[...]Their principle is something very simple. If one does not have thoughts, for example, then the object of thought does not exist. If there is no object, then there is also no thought. That is to say, both are relative. But when both are relative you find yourself in the absolute condition. This is not a way of proceeding through a method of reasoning which seeks to define or carry one to nothingness, sunyata. But in the non-gradual approach one attempts to find oneself through practice, experientially, in the non-dual, and this is what they meant by finding oneself in a state undisturbed by thought, which is the genuinely absolute truth or condition. In fact the system of Haxan insisted a great deal on this concept; he explained that if one finds oneself in such a condition, then one has no need of a teaching, of a method, or a rule at all. Note : if one finds oneself in that condition. Then, he continues, if one finds oneself in that condition and a thought arises, good and evil are the same thing.[...]
[...]On this point the Zogqen teaching is very similar to that of the Chinese Ch’an Buddhists. In the Zogqen teachings, too, there exists this same explanation of the relativity of good and bad. But this does not mean in Zogqen that one neglects the relative condition. As I said, if you find yourself in this absolute condition; but if you do not fond yourself in this condition, you obviously do not just neglect relative matters. Thus, one can understand that the principle method of Zen is a way to find yourself in the absolute condition. This principle is a common element between Chines Buddhism and Zogqen. But you must not therefore think they are one and the same thing. You must never forget that the two methods are different. We have already spoken of one as the way of self-liberation and the other as the path of renunciation. From the beginning, in principle, these two methods are very different.
When we speak of a teaching, a teaching always has a basis, then its path, and then its realization or outcome. The Zogqen teaching has also been called the teaching of self-perfectedness. This refers to the individual himself as self-perfected. The goal of the Zogqen teaching is not to arrive at the point of sunyata or void. In sutric Buddhism, in general the aim is sunyata or void, which means to aim oneself at what we call the absolute truth.[...]
[...]Tantrism in general is a path of transformation. It is not a path of renunciation. When there is a method for transforming things, it also means there is a method for integrating them.[...]When this transformation has become real, then sunyata, the void, has automatically been realized. It is not that sunyata, void, is a target at which one must aim, toward which one must direct oneself. It is rather that there is more to sunyata than the emptiness of the sutras; there is already a living manifestation. Then, through the capacity to have this manifestation present, that is, through the manifestation of the mandala, the dimension of peaceful and wrathful divinities, benefit is given to other beings. This is particular to the way of transformation, Tantrism.
From the point of view of Zogqen, however, this too is a form of gradual path, because in the teaching of Zogqen the principle is that of self-perfectedness. Self-perfectedness means that the so-called objective is nothing else than the manifestation of the energy of the primordial state of the individual himself. An individual who practices Zogqen must possess clear knowledge of the principle of energy and what it means. The principle of the Zogqen teaching is the self-perfectedness, the already-being-perfect of every individual. Another way of saying this is that the primordial state of the individual, one’s actual condition, is explained as having essence, nature, and energy. Through these three, the essence, nature and energy, it is also explained how the three bodies, trikaya, ultimately manifest themselves. This manifestation is explained through what we speak of as energy. The way of manifesting energy can be either as subject or as object. In this regard we speak of zal (rtsal) and rolba (rol pa), two ways in which energy can manifest. Just having an intellectual concept of energy is not enough, but one actually applies this knowledge of energy in practice. Through making use of one’s own energy, one arrives at what we call “total realization”. Thus, when we speak of Zen and Zogqen, it is obvious that these two methods are very different and not to be confused with one another.[...]