06-19-2010, 12:00 AM
lex icon wrote:Gonzo has said "perhaps there is no such thing as awakening"...
That's a very big non-committal, that perhaps. What do you think Gonzo is there awakening or not? And either way why do think that?
I tried to sneak that in there. What I was referencing was a quip from my favorite translation of The Blue Cliff Record which follows:
In clear illumination, there is no such thing as awakening. The concept of 'having awakened' turns around and deludes people. When you stretch out both feet and sleep, there's no false and no true - thus there isn't a single concern in one's heart. When hungry, one eats; when tired, one sleeps.
Perhaps the key phrase here is "In clear illumination", which, imo, covers a wide range of things, which I equate to the action don Juan said was vital: namely, the proper arrangement of items of the tonal. Even that phrase is general and rather vague. I take both to mean personal effort (recapitulation plus (if needed) guidance from an adept) aimed at eliminating negative effects of past history on current behavior. (Those negative effects could be called "reflexive behavior". For reference see www.yetanotherway.com/tonalwrk.)
In a way, I suppose this kind of work can be equated to efforts Zen monks exert in the search for enlightenment. It is conceivable, according to the quip, that once the work has borne fruit, the matter of awakening is no longer relevant.
lex icon wrote:I mean can we dig in and really explore what it is we are saying and meaning? The meanings and the implications of our broad statements are probably more beneficial and informative that the statements themselves.Quite probably. It's always, to me, an interesting exercise to attempt to describe beliefs and notions since it often leads to deeper understanding.
That's a very big non-committal, that perhaps. What do you think Gonzo is there awakening or not? And either way why do think that?
I tried to sneak that in there. What I was referencing was a quip from my favorite translation of The Blue Cliff Record which follows:
In clear illumination, there is no such thing as awakening. The concept of 'having awakened' turns around and deludes people. When you stretch out both feet and sleep, there's no false and no true - thus there isn't a single concern in one's heart. When hungry, one eats; when tired, one sleeps.
Perhaps the key phrase here is "In clear illumination", which, imo, covers a wide range of things, which I equate to the action don Juan said was vital: namely, the proper arrangement of items of the tonal. Even that phrase is general and rather vague. I take both to mean personal effort (recapitulation plus (if needed) guidance from an adept) aimed at eliminating negative effects of past history on current behavior. (Those negative effects could be called "reflexive behavior". For reference see www.yetanotherway.com/tonalwrk.)
In a way, I suppose this kind of work can be equated to efforts Zen monks exert in the search for enlightenment. It is conceivable, according to the quip, that once the work has borne fruit, the matter of awakening is no longer relevant.
lex icon wrote:I mean can we dig in and really explore what it is we are saying and meaning? The meanings and the implications of our broad statements are probably more beneficial and informative that the statements themselves.Quite probably. It's always, to me, an interesting exercise to attempt to describe beliefs and notions since it often leads to deeper understanding.