06-24-2010, 12:01 AM
Tiff wrote:Gonzo wrote
Tiff
Would you say your understanding, as difficult as it seems to be to put into words, could mean you have achieved enlightenment?
No, just that I got beyond the logic that stood in the way of seeing how things are. Its enlightening yes, but its not an achievement becasue it was available all the time, its just how things are. The achievement I suppose is to see this by overcoming the challnges to it, so in that sense, yes. But to be more accurate I would say I was already enlightened and just didn't know it before. And that everything is enlightened whether every-thing each sees it as such or not.
Its erroneous to say "I am enlightened in a world of unenlightened beings". This perception will always mislead, because it's not true. Because enlightenment is not a thing to be. If it were just a thing among many other things, what would be enlightening about it?
Ultimately I am not happy with this previous response, lol. I don't mean to make it sound like after reading Nagajuna presto, I am fully enlightened. Technically I didn't say this, but it could be interpreted that way. I was moreso meaning to say the direct experience of emptiness is very liberating and is what I perceive as referred to as enlightenment, in which case, everything is already empty and thus enlightened. And the realization is inevitable for all, so thus its not an achievement but rather a guarantee it will be reached, but work has to be done to "get there".
I was reading yesterday about the five Mahayana paths to enlightenment. This better describes the degrees of realization involved. I am at the third path at the moment.
There are five Mahayana paths--the paths of accumulation, preparation, seeing, meditation, and no more learning--that a practitioner develops sequentially.
"Blissful" refers to the path of accumulation, the first path. We enter this path when we first generate unfabricated, spontaneous bodhichitta every time we see or think about a sentient being. The path of accumulation is blissful because we have the taste of emptiness that comes through the first two wisdoms, the wisdoms of hearing and thinking about emptiness. Although our wisdom is not fully developed, it starts to cut through the elaborations of inherent exisitence and brings bliss in the mind.
"Virtuous" refers to the path of preparation. The demarcation between the path of accumulation and the path of preparation is when one has developed the union of shamatha (meditative quiescence) and vipashyana (special insight) focused on emptiness. Althogh one has realized emptiness, at this level its a conceptual realization, an inference. One's perception of emptiness is not yet direct and non-conceptual.
"Peaceful" indicates the path of seeing. That's the point when one has direct, non-conceptual realization of emptiness and becomes an arya--a noble or superior one. At this point one begins to free one's mindstream from the aquired or artificial afflictions--those learned from erroneous philosophies--and their seeds. These are eliminated entirely so that they never return. The innate afflictions and their seeds haven;t yet been eliminated, but they manifest very weakly, if at all, because one has the direct perception of emptiness when in meditative equipoise, and after meditative equipoise, one sees all phenomena like illusions and so doesn't grasp them as inherently existent.
Although not explicitly mentioned in the verse, the fourth of the five Mahayana paths, the path of meditation eliminates the innate level of afflictive obscurations that prevent liberation. These are the disturbing attitudes and negative emotions that have been with us since beginningless time. On the latter part of the path of meditation, one removes the cognitive obscurations that prevent Buddhahood. So there's a lot to do on the path of meditation.
"Nirvana's Peace" refers to the fifth path, the path of no more learning. Which is our final objective of practice. This path pacifies all obscurations, and one becomes a Buddha, a fully enlightened one who has removed all defilement and generated all good qualities to the fullest. One now has actualized the three Buddha bodies: the dharmakaya (truth body), sambhogakaya (enjoyment body), and nirmanakaya (emanation body). One has attained all this for the purpose of liberating beings from suffering and its causes. ~from Tara the Liberator
TiffWould you say your understanding, as difficult as it seems to be to put into words, could mean you have achieved enlightenment?
No, just that I got beyond the logic that stood in the way of seeing how things are. Its enlightening yes, but its not an achievement becasue it was available all the time, its just how things are. The achievement I suppose is to see this by overcoming the challnges to it, so in that sense, yes. But to be more accurate I would say I was already enlightened and just didn't know it before. And that everything is enlightened whether every-thing each sees it as such or not.
Its erroneous to say "I am enlightened in a world of unenlightened beings". This perception will always mislead, because it's not true. Because enlightenment is not a thing to be. If it were just a thing among many other things, what would be enlightening about it?
Ultimately I am not happy with this previous response, lol. I don't mean to make it sound like after reading Nagajuna presto, I am fully enlightened. Technically I didn't say this, but it could be interpreted that way. I was moreso meaning to say the direct experience of emptiness is very liberating and is what I perceive as referred to as enlightenment, in which case, everything is already empty and thus enlightened. And the realization is inevitable for all, so thus its not an achievement but rather a guarantee it will be reached, but work has to be done to "get there".
I was reading yesterday about the five Mahayana paths to enlightenment. This better describes the degrees of realization involved. I am at the third path at the moment.
There are five Mahayana paths--the paths of accumulation, preparation, seeing, meditation, and no more learning--that a practitioner develops sequentially.
"Blissful" refers to the path of accumulation, the first path. We enter this path when we first generate unfabricated, spontaneous bodhichitta every time we see or think about a sentient being. The path of accumulation is blissful because we have the taste of emptiness that comes through the first two wisdoms, the wisdoms of hearing and thinking about emptiness. Although our wisdom is not fully developed, it starts to cut through the elaborations of inherent exisitence and brings bliss in the mind.
"Virtuous" refers to the path of preparation. The demarcation between the path of accumulation and the path of preparation is when one has developed the union of shamatha (meditative quiescence) and vipashyana (special insight) focused on emptiness. Althogh one has realized emptiness, at this level its a conceptual realization, an inference. One's perception of emptiness is not yet direct and non-conceptual.
"Peaceful" indicates the path of seeing. That's the point when one has direct, non-conceptual realization of emptiness and becomes an arya--a noble or superior one. At this point one begins to free one's mindstream from the aquired or artificial afflictions--those learned from erroneous philosophies--and their seeds. These are eliminated entirely so that they never return. The innate afflictions and their seeds haven;t yet been eliminated, but they manifest very weakly, if at all, because one has the direct perception of emptiness when in meditative equipoise, and after meditative equipoise, one sees all phenomena like illusions and so doesn't grasp them as inherently existent.
Although not explicitly mentioned in the verse, the fourth of the five Mahayana paths, the path of meditation eliminates the innate level of afflictive obscurations that prevent liberation. These are the disturbing attitudes and negative emotions that have been with us since beginningless time. On the latter part of the path of meditation, one removes the cognitive obscurations that prevent Buddhahood. So there's a lot to do on the path of meditation.
"Nirvana's Peace" refers to the fifth path, the path of no more learning. Which is our final objective of practice. This path pacifies all obscurations, and one becomes a Buddha, a fully enlightened one who has removed all defilement and generated all good qualities to the fullest. One now has actualized the three Buddha bodies: the dharmakaya (truth body), sambhogakaya (enjoyment body), and nirmanakaya (emanation body). One has attained all this for the purpose of liberating beings from suffering and its causes. ~from Tara the Liberator