06-25-2010, 12:01 AM
I believe what you guys are talking about in toltec terms is formlessness. At a certain point we can feel objects and be clear of the separation of the emanations and the self. It is liberating, yes labeling this achievement darting past the eagle, not i would Nemo
What is formlessness?
formless |ˈfôrmləs|
adjective
without a clear or definite shape or structure : a dark and formless idea.
As was mentioned earlier formlessness is often thought of as emptiness as if Form is not emptiness. But Buddhism has pointed out that;
“Form is emptiness and emptiness is form”.
Form is but one of the five aggregates, the other four aggregates, sensation, perception, mental formations and consciousness are formless. We have been speaking about emptiness as it is revealed by dependent origination.
At a certain point we can feel objects and be clear of the separation of the emanations and the self. Nemo
The sensation of touch is active whenever an object comes into contact with the appropriate sense field. It is experienced as either contact or separation. The contact producing pleasure or pain, craving or aversion. Etc. Is this what you mean when you say we can feel objects at a certain point. What do you mean by a certain point? Are you talking about touch or are you referring to an intuitive feel for objects???
Then you have brought emanations into this. What do you mean by emanations?? Are you simply saying....that there is a clear discrimination between what we consider self and objects that are not self?
“Darting past the Eagle”....DJ made it quite clear that referring to this source of the energetic emanations as an Eagle was purely metaphorical and urged CC to come up with his own representation, perhaps a better one. However this source was presented energetically as the point from which all energetic emanations issue. It was suggested that if the feat (darting past the eagle) was not successfully accomplished this eagle/source would devour one’s awareness. It was further suggested that gathering up the totality of one’s being and burning from within would garner acknowledgement, a sort of salute from this eagle/source and one would be allowed to pass with awareness intact.
If we accept this, then we have a source to contend with, a first cause. Now I used to believe in God. I had many extraordinary experiences that I could not account for at that time other than to say, it was God or caused by God. I have since found other explanations and the events don’t seem quite so extraordinary now and are well within the potential available to us all. I do not doubt the experiences of the seers DJ refers to and how they set up teams etc to view this source of energetic emanations what I do question is their interpretation and the impact of this
in-form-ation upon their consciousness. One cannot help but wonder at the extreme distinction between this source and those sorcerers viewing it however briefly and even the distinction of the emanations. Is this not an attempt to establish this source as a formless object which is considered distinct from the viewing subject? A formless essence of energetic emanations. Within this scenario dualistic apprehension is still very much dominant. Both seer, the seen and the seeing, still very active. The discriminating mind still dividing and labeling and objectifying, consigning both the Eagle source and seer to existence, where things appear to arise, endure and cease as they have always appeared to do since beginningless time.
The idea of an essential source, as first cause, is untenable in light of dependent origination. “Darting past the eagle” is merely the recognition of this.
Awareness cannot be devoured, only obscured, like the sun behind clouds!
"This kind of awareness is meaningless to our compartmentalized minds.
Therefore the crux of the warrior's struggle is not so much to realize
that the crossing over stated in the rule means crossing to the third
attention, but rather to conceive that there exists such an awareness at
all."
What is formlessness?
formless |ˈfôrmləs|
adjective
without a clear or definite shape or structure : a dark and formless idea.
As was mentioned earlier formlessness is often thought of as emptiness as if Form is not emptiness. But Buddhism has pointed out that;
“Form is emptiness and emptiness is form”.
Form is but one of the five aggregates, the other four aggregates, sensation, perception, mental formations and consciousness are formless. We have been speaking about emptiness as it is revealed by dependent origination.
At a certain point we can feel objects and be clear of the separation of the emanations and the self. Nemo
The sensation of touch is active whenever an object comes into contact with the appropriate sense field. It is experienced as either contact or separation. The contact producing pleasure or pain, craving or aversion. Etc. Is this what you mean when you say we can feel objects at a certain point. What do you mean by a certain point? Are you talking about touch or are you referring to an intuitive feel for objects???
Then you have brought emanations into this. What do you mean by emanations?? Are you simply saying....that there is a clear discrimination between what we consider self and objects that are not self?
“Darting past the Eagle”....DJ made it quite clear that referring to this source of the energetic emanations as an Eagle was purely metaphorical and urged CC to come up with his own representation, perhaps a better one. However this source was presented energetically as the point from which all energetic emanations issue. It was suggested that if the feat (darting past the eagle) was not successfully accomplished this eagle/source would devour one’s awareness. It was further suggested that gathering up the totality of one’s being and burning from within would garner acknowledgement, a sort of salute from this eagle/source and one would be allowed to pass with awareness intact.
If we accept this, then we have a source to contend with, a first cause. Now I used to believe in God. I had many extraordinary experiences that I could not account for at that time other than to say, it was God or caused by God. I have since found other explanations and the events don’t seem quite so extraordinary now and are well within the potential available to us all. I do not doubt the experiences of the seers DJ refers to and how they set up teams etc to view this source of energetic emanations what I do question is their interpretation and the impact of this
in-form-ation upon their consciousness. One cannot help but wonder at the extreme distinction between this source and those sorcerers viewing it however briefly and even the distinction of the emanations. Is this not an attempt to establish this source as a formless object which is considered distinct from the viewing subject? A formless essence of energetic emanations. Within this scenario dualistic apprehension is still very much dominant. Both seer, the seen and the seeing, still very active. The discriminating mind still dividing and labeling and objectifying, consigning both the Eagle source and seer to existence, where things appear to arise, endure and cease as they have always appeared to do since beginningless time.
The idea of an essential source, as first cause, is untenable in light of dependent origination. “Darting past the eagle” is merely the recognition of this.
Awareness cannot be devoured, only obscured, like the sun behind clouds!
"This kind of awareness is meaningless to our compartmentalized minds.
Therefore the crux of the warrior's struggle is not so much to realize
that the crossing over stated in the rule means crossing to the third
attention, but rather to conceive that there exists such an awareness at
all."