07-04-2010, 12:02 AM
Gonzo wrote
Tiff -
What's the difference between calling something a "mystery" and believing something via "faith"? fwiw, I'm not a fan of the notion of God, primarily because, as with the notion of flyers and the foreign installation, it relieves us of responsibility.Well, mystery to me is like...our heart beats and we don't have to consciously think about it to make it occur. Or, our eyes see and we can scientifically describe how this occurs but to explain sight itself, that's the mystery.
So everything that occurs is a mystery when we really think about it. But to me this does not prove god. God as in "a being, a creator". I don't believe in god, because no beings with essence, no solid core anywhere. So religious faith would mean, one sees mystery and says, "this must prove god". I just don't see why this would be so. To me these are two unrelated things--mystery and god. God being a mental formation, mystery being what we realize when we examine phenomena. We don't need to have faith in mystery, mystery is. We do need to have faith in a god, if one seeks that, one has to rely on faith alone. Sure, they may feel love from their beliefs, but they attribute those emotions to what they project it upon, so then they conclude, god is loving. Or if they believe god is one who takes care of those who believe in him, and something good happens to the person, they conclude, "god did this...god made this miracle happen in my life, this proves god". Again, their faith leads them to attribute the outcome of result to what they project mentally. So its very hard to shake the faith of a believer. Because they perceive so many rewards in having such beliefs, and feel their beliefs are conformed.
I wouldn't say god relieves the notion of responsibility though. Some people change and improve themselves because of their belief in god. Such as they follow a doctrine of faith that says, "love they neighbor..." "do unto others...", so they will seek to do this and thus they take responsibility. Not all people of faith do this, lol, some do the opposite, use god to justify war etc. It just depends.
Same with the flyer. It can make a warrior intend to be free, and by this intent (or faith in freedom as a possibility) they will improve their weak areas and thus become stronger and more easily access freedom this way. In Buddhism it would be faith in overcoming karma. Then applying effort towards that. It helps to have some kind of functional framework. Such as I use Avalokitesvara and Tara to focus on compassion. I know such beings do not exist essentially, only within phenomenal arising that is dependent on all other phenomena as well. They are not beings, but rather a quality (embodiment of) that is expressed and felt. Such as, compassion is felt. My mental formation will see them as a Bodhisattvas, as a beings, but I know there is no being inherently. Just as with us.
So some would perhaps say, "if you know nothing exists essentially, why mentally form beings and things?" The same way we know a car does not exist (its just a label to a bunch of machine parts) but we allow the mental formation for its functionality. It would be absurd to say to someone who says, "hey want to go for a drive?" "no, man cars don't exist essentially, tell me were the essence of car is located then I will go drive with you." Its better, and people will think us more sane if we just say "ok, lets go for a drive in your car." Using the functional mental formation labeled "car" to the hunk of metal that is what we ride in . And besides, many people think car IS locatable..."hey, where's it located? Its in my driveway man."
Directly apprehending emptiness...an angel is no more real then the head of a needle, and no less real. Mental formations are no more real then form and no less real either. Most who consider the definition of "sane" or "normal" would say..."form is MORE real than thought...I can touch and expereince form. " But hey, we can also experience thought, so its equally real. (In dreams we can even feel thoughts, like, ever just stung by a bee in a dream, you feel it, lol.) Think of a car. Now you see in your minds eye car. Go look at a "car" physically. The form-car (sum of parts) will drive you someplace. The mentalization of car (and all other labels) will allow you to function in this world too because you can organize your understanding in this reality and communicate your needs via your mental capability of conceptualizing, with others. I think the only reason form has been given a greater value is because of the fear of dying.
Tiff -What's the difference between calling something a "mystery" and believing something via "faith"? fwiw, I'm not a fan of the notion of God, primarily because, as with the notion of flyers and the foreign installation, it relieves us of responsibility.Well, mystery to me is like...our heart beats and we don't have to consciously think about it to make it occur. Or, our eyes see and we can scientifically describe how this occurs but to explain sight itself, that's the mystery.
So everything that occurs is a mystery when we really think about it. But to me this does not prove god. God as in "a being, a creator". I don't believe in god, because no beings with essence, no solid core anywhere. So religious faith would mean, one sees mystery and says, "this must prove god". I just don't see why this would be so. To me these are two unrelated things--mystery and god. God being a mental formation, mystery being what we realize when we examine phenomena. We don't need to have faith in mystery, mystery is. We do need to have faith in a god, if one seeks that, one has to rely on faith alone. Sure, they may feel love from their beliefs, but they attribute those emotions to what they project it upon, so then they conclude, god is loving. Or if they believe god is one who takes care of those who believe in him, and something good happens to the person, they conclude, "god did this...god made this miracle happen in my life, this proves god". Again, their faith leads them to attribute the outcome of result to what they project mentally. So its very hard to shake the faith of a believer. Because they perceive so many rewards in having such beliefs, and feel their beliefs are conformed.
I wouldn't say god relieves the notion of responsibility though. Some people change and improve themselves because of their belief in god. Such as they follow a doctrine of faith that says, "love they neighbor..." "do unto others...", so they will seek to do this and thus they take responsibility. Not all people of faith do this, lol, some do the opposite, use god to justify war etc. It just depends.
Same with the flyer. It can make a warrior intend to be free, and by this intent (or faith in freedom as a possibility) they will improve their weak areas and thus become stronger and more easily access freedom this way. In Buddhism it would be faith in overcoming karma. Then applying effort towards that. It helps to have some kind of functional framework. Such as I use Avalokitesvara and Tara to focus on compassion. I know such beings do not exist essentially, only within phenomenal arising that is dependent on all other phenomena as well. They are not beings, but rather a quality (embodiment of) that is expressed and felt. Such as, compassion is felt. My mental formation will see them as a Bodhisattvas, as a beings, but I know there is no being inherently. Just as with us.
So some would perhaps say, "if you know nothing exists essentially, why mentally form beings and things?" The same way we know a car does not exist (its just a label to a bunch of machine parts) but we allow the mental formation for its functionality. It would be absurd to say to someone who says, "hey want to go for a drive?" "no, man cars don't exist essentially, tell me were the essence of car is located then I will go drive with you." Its better, and people will think us more sane if we just say "ok, lets go for a drive in your car." Using the functional mental formation labeled "car" to the hunk of metal that is what we ride in . And besides, many people think car IS locatable..."hey, where's it located? Its in my driveway man."
Directly apprehending emptiness...an angel is no more real then the head of a needle, and no less real. Mental formations are no more real then form and no less real either. Most who consider the definition of "sane" or "normal" would say..."form is MORE real than thought...I can touch and expereince form. " But hey, we can also experience thought, so its equally real. (In dreams we can even feel thoughts, like, ever just stung by a bee in a dream, you feel it, lol.) Think of a car. Now you see in your minds eye car. Go look at a "car" physically. The form-car (sum of parts) will drive you someplace. The mentalization of car (and all other labels) will allow you to function in this world too because you can organize your understanding in this reality and communicate your needs via your mental capability of conceptualizing, with others. I think the only reason form has been given a greater value is because of the fear of dying.