07-05-2010, 12:02 AM
Gonzo wrote:The point re "mystery" v "faith" was that neither can be verified, just as the notion of God or the theory of reincarnation cannot be verified. In my opinion, about the best that can be had is to accept a belief that one likes for whatever reasons one chooses, whether that choice be agreement with ancients, impeccable logic, or just personal like.
Mystery cannot be verified in any logical way, but think of this Gonzo,... if we can eliminate all concepts that cloud the mystery, such as inherent being, creator, first cause, independent exisitence, etc, then we are just left with the mystery...which will always be a mystery and we will see it for what it is and not grasp at concepts to explain things.
Some people maybe don't believe in a creator and feel like they are beyond a certain threshold then those who do. Ok, but this does not mean there are not more thresholds to cross. You perceive your thoughts are most representative of "you" and everything is because of thoughts, you say? That's like saying "thoughts are the creators, the first cause", so its a bit like being back at religious conceptualizing, this form of perceiving thoughts as having such authority over reality. So this can be explored, why do you perceive thoughts as the cause of everything? If your logic in this is sound, I won't be able to refute it, or my refute will not be as sound as your explanation.
"We are what we think.
All that we are arises with our thoughts.
With our thoughts we make the world."
Are you not saying here that there is no mystery because thought is behind everything? Granted you could say I'm doing the same by saying everything is dependently arising. But keep in mind I am very much wanting to over turn every rock of conceptualizing to show why after all other concepts are disproven, dependent arising is the only one that is left standing and if you apply it to a rigorous examination, it holds up to the test, because its not claiming absolutes or nihilist conclusions. Once all false conclusions are let go of, the feeling of mystery is quite overwhelming.
Mystery cannot be verified in any logical way, but think of this Gonzo,... if we can eliminate all concepts that cloud the mystery, such as inherent being, creator, first cause, independent exisitence, etc, then we are just left with the mystery...which will always be a mystery and we will see it for what it is and not grasp at concepts to explain things.
Some people maybe don't believe in a creator and feel like they are beyond a certain threshold then those who do. Ok, but this does not mean there are not more thresholds to cross. You perceive your thoughts are most representative of "you" and everything is because of thoughts, you say? That's like saying "thoughts are the creators, the first cause", so its a bit like being back at religious conceptualizing, this form of perceiving thoughts as having such authority over reality. So this can be explored, why do you perceive thoughts as the cause of everything? If your logic in this is sound, I won't be able to refute it, or my refute will not be as sound as your explanation.
"We are what we think.
All that we are arises with our thoughts.
With our thoughts we make the world."
Are you not saying here that there is no mystery because thought is behind everything? Granted you could say I'm doing the same by saying everything is dependently arising. But keep in mind I am very much wanting to over turn every rock of conceptualizing to show why after all other concepts are disproven, dependent arising is the only one that is left standing and if you apply it to a rigorous examination, it holds up to the test, because its not claiming absolutes or nihilist conclusions. Once all false conclusions are let go of, the feeling of mystery is quite overwhelming.