07-15-2010, 12:03 AM
Gonzo wrote:
Tiff wrote:You talked about essential zen, well within your understanding does not essential zen include the realization of emptiness?
No. In fact, it is the exact opposite, perhaps called "fullness". In my opinion, the essence of Zen is an absolute appreciation of what is in the moment. It does not matter whether it is maya, insubstantial, empty, or void. It is taken at face value. We are here to experience what is here, not, in my opinion, to see through it or to declare it null and void. That is, using the "Matrix" analogy, I prefer the red wine, the steak and the cigar. Or in other words, the mud, the blood and the beer, and above all, the drama.Gonzo, in all due respect, I don't think you tried too hard to understand Nagarjuna. I say this based on your responses that are so off target of what I'm saying. Such as this quote above here. I have declared nothing null and void, in fact, I wrote many times about the importance of avoiding nihilism and of not referencing a void. I thought I spelled it out quite clearly what I meant by this, and now you conclude the very thing I said Nagarjuna helps one to avoid, which is this sense that "nothing matters because its not real" which is a nihilist perspective.
Remember what happened to the guy who took the red wine, steak, and cigar though? hehe I prefer to learn, as much as I can about this extraordinary world, and to also unlearn what was incorrectly taught. If you say you are taking the steak, you are saying you are not curious and want to live in ignorance because its pleasurable to you. The guy's exact words in the movie "ignorance is bliss" then he died, lol. I say enlightenment is bliss!
Another way of looking at that scene is that the guy, given the choice of a stark grey-world exisitence eating food from a can, compared to being in the matrix and getting all the enjoyment out of life, chose the matrix and probably without regret even if his life was shorter, it was happier... ok, in the movie its understandable why this would be a choice (still not a good one imo, but makes some sense), but here, in our discussion, it's really does not correspond, because reading Nagarjuna does not put one in a stark grey world. One does not have to give anything up in terms of these life-expereinces, enjoying food, wine, cigars whatever. So again I think you are grossly misinterpreting things and its all within your own view and nothing new allowed into your field of perception.
Fullness. Why can't this fullness be empty of essence? Why do you see empty as desolate, null, void? I have never spoken of it this way. Are you not truly reading my words and instead bouncing your own ideas off and back to yourself without taking anything new in? Seems so to me. At the very least, try to let go of this null, blah, void thing. Its not even what I've been talking about
So order you a steak, pour some wine, and light up a stoogie and we can discuss Nagarjuna...or not...it matters not to me. Seems you are pretty much through with the discussion anyway. But I'm always willing to engage if you are.
When I was born, the three dog night tune was the top song that week...its in my bones, I love this world. Joy to it! So that much we have in common. Drama...I've had enough drama, can do without that...but will take adventure any day.
Tiff wrote:You talked about essential zen, well within your understanding does not essential zen include the realization of emptiness?
No. In fact, it is the exact opposite, perhaps called "fullness". In my opinion, the essence of Zen is an absolute appreciation of what is in the moment. It does not matter whether it is maya, insubstantial, empty, or void. It is taken at face value. We are here to experience what is here, not, in my opinion, to see through it or to declare it null and void. That is, using the "Matrix" analogy, I prefer the red wine, the steak and the cigar. Or in other words, the mud, the blood and the beer, and above all, the drama.Gonzo, in all due respect, I don't think you tried too hard to understand Nagarjuna. I say this based on your responses that are so off target of what I'm saying. Such as this quote above here. I have declared nothing null and void, in fact, I wrote many times about the importance of avoiding nihilism and of not referencing a void. I thought I spelled it out quite clearly what I meant by this, and now you conclude the very thing I said Nagarjuna helps one to avoid, which is this sense that "nothing matters because its not real" which is a nihilist perspective.
Remember what happened to the guy who took the red wine, steak, and cigar though? hehe I prefer to learn, as much as I can about this extraordinary world, and to also unlearn what was incorrectly taught. If you say you are taking the steak, you are saying you are not curious and want to live in ignorance because its pleasurable to you. The guy's exact words in the movie "ignorance is bliss" then he died, lol. I say enlightenment is bliss!
Another way of looking at that scene is that the guy, given the choice of a stark grey-world exisitence eating food from a can, compared to being in the matrix and getting all the enjoyment out of life, chose the matrix and probably without regret even if his life was shorter, it was happier... ok, in the movie its understandable why this would be a choice (still not a good one imo, but makes some sense), but here, in our discussion, it's really does not correspond, because reading Nagarjuna does not put one in a stark grey world. One does not have to give anything up in terms of these life-expereinces, enjoying food, wine, cigars whatever. So again I think you are grossly misinterpreting things and its all within your own view and nothing new allowed into your field of perception.
Fullness. Why can't this fullness be empty of essence? Why do you see empty as desolate, null, void? I have never spoken of it this way. Are you not truly reading my words and instead bouncing your own ideas off and back to yourself without taking anything new in? Seems so to me. At the very least, try to let go of this null, blah, void thing. Its not even what I've been talking about
So order you a steak, pour some wine, and light up a stoogie and we can discuss Nagarjuna...or not...it matters not to me. Seems you are pretty much through with the discussion anyway. But I'm always willing to engage if you are.
When I was born, the three dog night tune was the top song that week...its in my bones, I love this world. Joy to it! So that much we have in common. Drama...I've had enough drama, can do without that...but will take adventure any day.