07-16-2010, 12:03 AM
Gonzo wrote: My own investigations have followed a different path than yours, yours more towards the intellectual, mine more towards the sensual.
Well, based on forum interactions I can see how you conclude this, but in life, I am a very sensual person I really love life, and the things that happen as we observe around us. I just spent half a week in Beijing, went to the Tibetan Lamasery, also Beihai Park, Summer Palace, and prince's mansion, and more... I was so taken in by all the beauty the ancient Chinese surrounded themseleves with and the gradeur of bringing their sense of spiritualism into manifestation in a "here and now" reality experience. Really grand temples and enormous statues all devoted to spiritual attainments. And now we have the modern, us people, who frequent these places and bring a new dimension to it all.
Tiff wrote:Fullness. Why can't this fullness be empty of essence? Why do you see empty as desolate, null, void? I have never spoken of it this way. Are you not truly reading my words and instead bouncing your own ideas off and back to yourself without taking anything new in? Seems so to me. At the very least, try to let go of this null, blah, void thing. Its not even what I've been talking about.
I wasn't aware I saw empty as desolate, null or void. I saw it as empty, and I continue to disagree with it. Rather, the notion is of no value since I'm willing to accept what I perceive at face value and to enjoy it as it seems to be.
Well, I just think you view Nagarjuna this way (like blase), and the approach to realizing emptiness this way. The Middle Way treatise is only one of his authorships. Its very mechanical in logic purposefully and that's in order to dislodge the entrenched views of erroneous logic.
Tiff wrote:So order you a steak, pour some wine, and light up a stoogie and we can discuss Nagarjuna...or not...it matters not to me. Seems you are pretty much through with the discussion anyway. But I'm always willing to engage if you are.
Nah...I found the aforementioned essay on Nagarjuna, and I intend to spend some time with it.
Ok, but I believe its an indirect approach, correct? Nagarjuna seemed hard to understand for me too at first, but then it just begins to sink in. I still recommend you read him directly, even if we don't discuss it here. If you read indirect, you will be getting another person's take on it. Which can be a good supplement sometimes but better to have that combined with accessing him directly yourself.
Tiff wrote:When I was born, the three dog night tune was the top song that week...its in my bones, I love this world. Joy to it! So that much we have in common. Drama...I've had enough drama, can do without that...but will take adventure any day.
Heh. Seems to me adventure=drama. Drama usually has a bad name, since every family seems to have a drama queen of sorts, and most everyone else seems to be tired of it...but they aren't, really.
Yes, I was just posting about stigmas in the woman's forum. Remember, men can be just as dramatic (look at Hitler, John McEnroe, Mel Gibson, and just about any coach at a sporting event...you know... hurling chairs through the air temper tantrums and such).
To me this difference between drama and adventure is the heaviness of emotion involved. Ok, that's a distinction I make and now clarify to you. To me life is exciting, it doesn't have to be dramatic though...which means emotions do not have to be the source of excitement, instead awe and wonderment can be excitement. So its moving from emotional expereinces to spiritual realms of expereinces. Maybe it can be said spiritual experience is just higher levels of emotional experience...either way it avoids the feeding off drama in these upper realms and upper, of course, is just a phrase (not meant literally).
Well, based on forum interactions I can see how you conclude this, but in life, I am a very sensual person I really love life, and the things that happen as we observe around us. I just spent half a week in Beijing, went to the Tibetan Lamasery, also Beihai Park, Summer Palace, and prince's mansion, and more... I was so taken in by all the beauty the ancient Chinese surrounded themseleves with and the gradeur of bringing their sense of spiritualism into manifestation in a "here and now" reality experience. Really grand temples and enormous statues all devoted to spiritual attainments. And now we have the modern, us people, who frequent these places and bring a new dimension to it all.
Tiff wrote:Fullness. Why can't this fullness be empty of essence? Why do you see empty as desolate, null, void? I have never spoken of it this way. Are you not truly reading my words and instead bouncing your own ideas off and back to yourself without taking anything new in? Seems so to me. At the very least, try to let go of this null, blah, void thing. Its not even what I've been talking about.
I wasn't aware I saw empty as desolate, null or void. I saw it as empty, and I continue to disagree with it. Rather, the notion is of no value since I'm willing to accept what I perceive at face value and to enjoy it as it seems to be.
Well, I just think you view Nagarjuna this way (like blase), and the approach to realizing emptiness this way. The Middle Way treatise is only one of his authorships. Its very mechanical in logic purposefully and that's in order to dislodge the entrenched views of erroneous logic.
Tiff wrote:So order you a steak, pour some wine, and light up a stoogie and we can discuss Nagarjuna...or not...it matters not to me. Seems you are pretty much through with the discussion anyway. But I'm always willing to engage if you are.
Nah...I found the aforementioned essay on Nagarjuna, and I intend to spend some time with it.
Ok, but I believe its an indirect approach, correct? Nagarjuna seemed hard to understand for me too at first, but then it just begins to sink in. I still recommend you read him directly, even if we don't discuss it here. If you read indirect, you will be getting another person's take on it. Which can be a good supplement sometimes but better to have that combined with accessing him directly yourself.
Tiff wrote:When I was born, the three dog night tune was the top song that week...its in my bones, I love this world. Joy to it! So that much we have in common. Drama...I've had enough drama, can do without that...but will take adventure any day.
Heh. Seems to me adventure=drama. Drama usually has a bad name, since every family seems to have a drama queen of sorts, and most everyone else seems to be tired of it...but they aren't, really.
Yes, I was just posting about stigmas in the woman's forum. Remember, men can be just as dramatic (look at Hitler, John McEnroe, Mel Gibson, and just about any coach at a sporting event...you know... hurling chairs through the air temper tantrums and such).
To me this difference between drama and adventure is the heaviness of emotion involved. Ok, that's a distinction I make and now clarify to you. To me life is exciting, it doesn't have to be dramatic though...which means emotions do not have to be the source of excitement, instead awe and wonderment can be excitement. So its moving from emotional expereinces to spiritual realms of expereinces. Maybe it can be said spiritual experience is just higher levels of emotional experience...either way it avoids the feeding off drama in these upper realms and upper, of course, is just a phrase (not meant literally).