07-18-2010, 12:04 AM
Gonzo wrote:Elsewhere, this comment:
Tiff wrote:Nagarjuna's view is that (contrary to nihilism) there does exist a world of selves and things, namely, the world that appears before us (the phenomenal world), but that (contrary to essentialism) all such phenomenal entities are impermanent, continually changing, interdependent, insubstantial — in other words, "empty" (shunya) of essence."
First a correction from previous post...the Wachowski brothers wrote the
Matrix, not Cohen.
How can a thing be empty of essence? Logically, that makes no sense. Either a thing is, or it is not. If it is, it has essence, which is the meaning of the word.
"Things" have form, energy, awareness, perception, sensation, ... but essence? Not necessarily, it just appears so. So it must be explored in order to see for oneself!
Nagarjuna discusses what a real thing would be. A real thing with essence. The essence would make the thing impenetrable, permanent, unable to change due to its intrinsic essence. Think of what it would mean to have an intrinsic nature. A part of you that never changed and that part was the real you. Ok, if its the real you and you are complete in this realness, then why would you need anything else?! Why would you have to have any kind of exchange with other beings whatsoever? You are real and complete, end of story. Being a complete essence, you stand frozen like a statue in your completeness, you never age, you never move you never change, because having a real essence means you do not exchange (give or take) any part of this essential you, because it is essential you and not essentially anything else. So you are permanent and immovable.
Ok, we are obviously not this. We are constant flux, ever changing, its emptiness that makes this possible. We have no essences so we flow because ultimately we are nothing. Its not that we are nothingness itself, even nothingness is no-thing. But lets not try to go too far right now. I think this idea of what your real essence would entail is enough for you to see its not possible. If you read NJ's chapter Agent and Action...that's a good one on essence. Another one is Arising, Enduring and Dissolving. Both these chapters will get into how essences cannot "be".
I think at this point you have been trying to understand NJ based on the Happening chapter posted plus my and Lex's commentary here in this thread. If so, that's not enough, truly.
The last thing I want to ask, is, what does the pursuit of understanding through Nagarjuna's guidance provide you? Do you understand being in a different form? Is it a better way of being than before encountering his teachings?
Its not just I understand my being different than I perceived myself, Gonzo, I understand everything and everyone is different than perceived...appeared to be previously. Now one looking at this from the outside of realization could get confused and make it what its not. Lets go back to Neo When he was unplugged from the Matrix he didn't necessarily do cartwheels and shout "yea I'm free, wee this is fun" lol. Existence was still there to be dealt with. But look at how he viewed the Matrix...
Before he had thought he was Thomas A. Anderson living as a computer programmer. Then, after being disconnected of the tubes and told the secrets by Morpheus (Nagarjuna lets say) he saw it was all an illusion. So that's power right there! Not power to conquer anything, but power to not be lost to ignorance living life blind to the truth of exisitence. So his clarity began to accumulate which is what needs to happen for those seeking Buddhahood, and in Shamanism, "Total Freedom". (BTW, the Mongolian Shamans made alliances with Tibetan Buddhists so the both combined efforts here in China, during Qing dynasty, the emperor himself enabled this to happen. Mongolians are Shamans just like in Native America. One of the only surviving mansions I visited in Beijing has rooms for both Buddhism and Shamanic practices, because they were harmoniously incorporated at that time.)
Anyway, back to what I was saying...clarity is a most important ally. Without it the practitioner has nothing because they cannot see beyond the illusions of the mind, mental obscurations. Buddha cleared completely his emotional afflictions and cognitive distortions and then he attained full enlightenment. So this all here puts you on the path and paths are merely streams of consciousness.
So I'm on the path of realizing emptiness directly. I still have to work to clear afflictions and obscurations. This is hands-on work, meditation, and effort, but to see the Matrix for what it is is power and the same goes with existence here.
Is it a better way? Yes because I don't get attached, I don't seek Absolutes nor do I swing to Nihilism. I just have to deal with the residue of my previous actions (karma you could say), so I have work to do, but in terms of getting lost now, it's not going to happen. I am free in many regards and it makes me feel joyous. But don't think I'm doing cartwheels, or even suggesting such, lol. But yes, its better And I just keep going with it and it becomes more and more exquisite. I'm not a Bodisattva, lol, I'm a learner and have gratitude for the teachers. But I have found compassion also has to be consciously cultivated, even after realizing emptiness, afflictions still have to be worked upon to resolve. Empowerment is interesting, instead of feeling you are getting bigger and bigger you feel you get smaller and smaller and this is like expanding,... an irony. Did you ever watch the Incredible Shrinking Man?, its a black and white flick (1957), at the end he says some pretty profound stuff before he "disappears".
[closing soliloquy narration]
Scott
Carey:
I was continuing to shrink, to become... what? The infinitesimal? What
was I? Still a human being? Or was I the man of the future? If there
were other bursts of radiation, other clouds drifting across seas and
continents, would other beings follow me into this vast new world? So
close - the infinitesimal and the infinite. But suddenly, I knew they
were really the two ends of the same concept. The unbelievably small and
the unbelievably vast eventually meet - like the closing of a gigantic
circle. I looked up, as if somehow I would grasp the heavens. The
universe, worlds beyond number, God's silver tapestry spread across the
night. And in that moment, I knew the answer to the riddle of the
infinite. I had thought in terms of man's own limited dimension. I had
presumed upon nature. That existence begins and ends in man's
conception, not nature's. And I felt my body dwindling, melting,
becoming nothing. My fears melted away. And in their place came
acceptance. All this vast majesty of creation, it had to mean something.
And then I meant something, too. Yes, smaller than the smallest, I
meant something, too. To God, there is no zero. I still exist!
Ok so now I introduce God, capital G, lol. Not meaning to confuse what my position is (so please excuse the god reference, its the script writer's, not mine), but I really like this quote. He shrinks into nothing (emptiness) and finds he still exists and nature depends on him as much as he on nature, so exisitence still is, always was! Only man's erroneous conceptions made him conclude otherwise. He sees he is empty yet still here. Exhilarating!
Now I am sort of taking what he says out of context, because he says "to God there is no zero", so its like he is saying no emptiness, but remember, he shrinks into nothing to discover this (realizing emptiness directly in metaphorical terms), to be aware of this, so the emptiness (his awareness of) is in phenomena and his experience of it! So he looses fear of the annihilation of his intrinsic nature because he sees he has no intrinsic nature (to be destroyed). Always he is something (without essence) due to interdependency that needs him as much as he needs everything else. This something he is changes (and is comprised of parts, remember the car?) so what is it really? How can we give it "an essence"? Don't you see we don't even need to? If nothing (not one speak of anything) can ever be destroyed, it also cannot have ever been created, so it does not endure,... its empty of essence! Empty of being essentially as a fixed thing. Dependent arising, everything dependents of everything at all times and this interdependency is a complete exchange in which no- thing remains unchanged because its never was any-thing to start with. No-thing has inherent essence so there is no such thing as independent phenomena, thus no threat of destruction or exclusions, no fear of annihilation from other independent phenomena because there is no independent phenomena!
Think of this and think of how he was even able to become aware of this given that, when he realized he was nothing at all, this is when he truly understood his exisitence. Before this he was kicvkign and screaming his way through his life as he headed to his death as he was shrinking. His ignorance made him suffer. Until he realized the true nature of existence.
Tiff wrote:Nagarjuna's view is that (contrary to nihilism) there does exist a world of selves and things, namely, the world that appears before us (the phenomenal world), but that (contrary to essentialism) all such phenomenal entities are impermanent, continually changing, interdependent, insubstantial — in other words, "empty" (shunya) of essence."
First a correction from previous post...the Wachowski brothers wrote the
Matrix, not Cohen.
How can a thing be empty of essence? Logically, that makes no sense. Either a thing is, or it is not. If it is, it has essence, which is the meaning of the word.
"Things" have form, energy, awareness, perception, sensation, ... but essence? Not necessarily, it just appears so. So it must be explored in order to see for oneself!
Nagarjuna discusses what a real thing would be. A real thing with essence. The essence would make the thing impenetrable, permanent, unable to change due to its intrinsic essence. Think of what it would mean to have an intrinsic nature. A part of you that never changed and that part was the real you. Ok, if its the real you and you are complete in this realness, then why would you need anything else?! Why would you have to have any kind of exchange with other beings whatsoever? You are real and complete, end of story. Being a complete essence, you stand frozen like a statue in your completeness, you never age, you never move you never change, because having a real essence means you do not exchange (give or take) any part of this essential you, because it is essential you and not essentially anything else. So you are permanent and immovable.
Ok, we are obviously not this. We are constant flux, ever changing, its emptiness that makes this possible. We have no essences so we flow because ultimately we are nothing. Its not that we are nothingness itself, even nothingness is no-thing. But lets not try to go too far right now. I think this idea of what your real essence would entail is enough for you to see its not possible. If you read NJ's chapter Agent and Action...that's a good one on essence. Another one is Arising, Enduring and Dissolving. Both these chapters will get into how essences cannot "be".
I think at this point you have been trying to understand NJ based on the Happening chapter posted plus my and Lex's commentary here in this thread. If so, that's not enough, truly.
The last thing I want to ask, is, what does the pursuit of understanding through Nagarjuna's guidance provide you? Do you understand being in a different form? Is it a better way of being than before encountering his teachings?
Its not just I understand my being different than I perceived myself, Gonzo, I understand everything and everyone is different than perceived...appeared to be previously. Now one looking at this from the outside of realization could get confused and make it what its not. Lets go back to Neo When he was unplugged from the Matrix he didn't necessarily do cartwheels and shout "yea I'm free, wee this is fun" lol. Existence was still there to be dealt with. But look at how he viewed the Matrix...
Before he had thought he was Thomas A. Anderson living as a computer programmer. Then, after being disconnected of the tubes and told the secrets by Morpheus (Nagarjuna lets say) he saw it was all an illusion. So that's power right there! Not power to conquer anything, but power to not be lost to ignorance living life blind to the truth of exisitence. So his clarity began to accumulate which is what needs to happen for those seeking Buddhahood, and in Shamanism, "Total Freedom". (BTW, the Mongolian Shamans made alliances with Tibetan Buddhists so the both combined efforts here in China, during Qing dynasty, the emperor himself enabled this to happen. Mongolians are Shamans just like in Native America. One of the only surviving mansions I visited in Beijing has rooms for both Buddhism and Shamanic practices, because they were harmoniously incorporated at that time.)
Anyway, back to what I was saying...clarity is a most important ally. Without it the practitioner has nothing because they cannot see beyond the illusions of the mind, mental obscurations. Buddha cleared completely his emotional afflictions and cognitive distortions and then he attained full enlightenment. So this all here puts you on the path and paths are merely streams of consciousness.
So I'm on the path of realizing emptiness directly. I still have to work to clear afflictions and obscurations. This is hands-on work, meditation, and effort, but to see the Matrix for what it is is power and the same goes with existence here.
Is it a better way? Yes because I don't get attached, I don't seek Absolutes nor do I swing to Nihilism. I just have to deal with the residue of my previous actions (karma you could say), so I have work to do, but in terms of getting lost now, it's not going to happen. I am free in many regards and it makes me feel joyous. But don't think I'm doing cartwheels, or even suggesting such, lol. But yes, its better And I just keep going with it and it becomes more and more exquisite. I'm not a Bodisattva, lol, I'm a learner and have gratitude for the teachers. But I have found compassion also has to be consciously cultivated, even after realizing emptiness, afflictions still have to be worked upon to resolve. Empowerment is interesting, instead of feeling you are getting bigger and bigger you feel you get smaller and smaller and this is like expanding,... an irony. Did you ever watch the Incredible Shrinking Man?, its a black and white flick (1957), at the end he says some pretty profound stuff before he "disappears".
[closing soliloquy narration]
Scott
Carey:
I was continuing to shrink, to become... what? The infinitesimal? What
was I? Still a human being? Or was I the man of the future? If there
were other bursts of radiation, other clouds drifting across seas and
continents, would other beings follow me into this vast new world? So
close - the infinitesimal and the infinite. But suddenly, I knew they
were really the two ends of the same concept. The unbelievably small and
the unbelievably vast eventually meet - like the closing of a gigantic
circle. I looked up, as if somehow I would grasp the heavens. The
universe, worlds beyond number, God's silver tapestry spread across the
night. And in that moment, I knew the answer to the riddle of the
infinite. I had thought in terms of man's own limited dimension. I had
presumed upon nature. That existence begins and ends in man's
conception, not nature's. And I felt my body dwindling, melting,
becoming nothing. My fears melted away. And in their place came
acceptance. All this vast majesty of creation, it had to mean something.
And then I meant something, too. Yes, smaller than the smallest, I
meant something, too. To God, there is no zero. I still exist!
Ok so now I introduce God, capital G, lol. Not meaning to confuse what my position is (so please excuse the god reference, its the script writer's, not mine), but I really like this quote. He shrinks into nothing (emptiness) and finds he still exists and nature depends on him as much as he on nature, so exisitence still is, always was! Only man's erroneous conceptions made him conclude otherwise. He sees he is empty yet still here. Exhilarating!
Now I am sort of taking what he says out of context, because he says "to God there is no zero", so its like he is saying no emptiness, but remember, he shrinks into nothing to discover this (realizing emptiness directly in metaphorical terms), to be aware of this, so the emptiness (his awareness of) is in phenomena and his experience of it! So he looses fear of the annihilation of his intrinsic nature because he sees he has no intrinsic nature (to be destroyed). Always he is something (without essence) due to interdependency that needs him as much as he needs everything else. This something he is changes (and is comprised of parts, remember the car?) so what is it really? How can we give it "an essence"? Don't you see we don't even need to? If nothing (not one speak of anything) can ever be destroyed, it also cannot have ever been created, so it does not endure,... its empty of essence! Empty of being essentially as a fixed thing. Dependent arising, everything dependents of everything at all times and this interdependency is a complete exchange in which no- thing remains unchanged because its never was any-thing to start with. No-thing has inherent essence so there is no such thing as independent phenomena, thus no threat of destruction or exclusions, no fear of annihilation from other independent phenomena because there is no independent phenomena!
Think of this and think of how he was even able to become aware of this given that, when he realized he was nothing at all, this is when he truly understood his exisitence. Before this he was kicvkign and screaming his way through his life as he headed to his death as he was shrinking. His ignorance made him suffer. Until he realized the true nature of existence.