07-22-2010, 12:05 AM
Gonzo wrote:
...it's about examining existence itself. And getting freed from perception.
All is well until that last quote. Seems to me were we to get freed from perception, we would likewise become freed from existence. Cogito ergo sum, once again, and if I cease thinking (i.e. cease perceiving), I cease existing.Gonzo,
First it must be clarified what perceiving is. So we are all on the same page, hopefully.
The Shurangama Sutra
The Buddha, Sakyamuni, once asked twenty five Bodhisattvas to explain enlightenment and how they arrived at it.The Bodhisattva of wisdom, Manjushri, was then asked to judge which one was most suitable for humans to use. He determined the perceiver of sounds has the most suitable practice (quickest way to enlightenment). The perciever of sounds is he who hears the cries of the world, notable in the Lotus Sutra. Avalokiteshvara (India), Kuan Yin (China).
Kuan Yin's Shurangama Sutra deals directly with perception as a non-constant experience and shows us directly what is constant and permanent. Its a meditative application but can be useful here as discussion.
The story of the practice tells that when Kuan Yin was human and practicing to attain enlightenment, she often meditated near the ocean. Many of you Zen purists should appreciate this. In other words, not words, lol, but dealing with hearing attachments.
Upon awaking one morning Kuan Yin heard the ocean surf breaking the silence, then she noticed the surf ceased and the silence resumed. Then came the surf again and thus the silence ended. Kuan Yin became aware then of hearing two things: the surf and the silence, but upon this she also realized it was impossible to hear both simultaneously, because the sound of surf made the silence cease and the silence was only perceived by the cessation of the surf.
Kuan Yin then understood that both of these sound objects had something in common, both arose and ceased. This is perception of objects, in this case sound-objects, a non-constants always in flux. Impermanence. Thomas Anderson in the Matrix, Neo out of the Matrix, the fears of Thomas Anderson giving way to become the fearless hero Neo, the fears returning to Neo to then take the form of Thomas Anderson again. Perceptual relocations that cannot be sustained indefinitely. Surf and silence.
Kuan Yin's ultimate realization was it was her sense of hearing consciousness that made it possible to detect both the sounds and the silence (because silence is a sound too). If silence were a true cessation of sounds then the returning of the surf would not have been possible. So in conclusion, Kuan Yin understood her sense of hearing was the constant, permanent and unchangeable aspect that enabled perception to occur. Furthermore, this ability was not dependent on the presence of or absence of sounds.
Now I realize alot of arguments can be rasied at this point such as, what if a person is deaf? Or what about when a person dies? etc. imo, the Shurangama Sutra should not be taken so literal. Kuan Yin's approach is a meditative application one can use. Also the discussion of it alone can be enlightening.
Aside from the direct application of, here is what the teachings are pointing to: that objects rise and fade, and we have learned to follow them and attach to them as absolutes. For example when I say Marilyn Monroe, most people will get an image of her in her 20's, maybe wearing that white dress and seductive smile to the camera. But what about her when she was 5, 10, 15 years old? The constant flux of her is not what is apparent, what is apparent is a snapshot view, this is the attachment aspect...failing to see the non-constant for what it is and in such ignorance assigning it with a permanence it has not. Things are perceived but then taken as constants in such perceptional apprehensions when they are absolutely not this way. So its just that we fail to see this is what we are doing all the time. We are making things permanent when they are not. Attachment to what is perceived is the cause of this.
Getting back to Kuan Yin's approach, hearing consciousness is what is permanent. Its not the same as what is heard. It is not dependent on the hearing of sound objects.
You, Gonzo, think of perception as the ultimate. But upon examination its seen that perception is the flux of objects reflected by thought. However, there is a constant that can account for reflection upon of sound and silence, light and darkness, large and small etc. Duality is not the end of the road, there is beyond this duality an experience not dependent on the dual equation. This constant is still part of dependent arising but it is permanent, whereas perception is impermanent. So what's being introduced now is consciousness. What Buddha achieved was he got beyond impermanent, cyclic existence, and accessed permanent nature, called the Buddha-nature.
Does essential Zen talk about the Buddha-nature and if so what is its understanding of it?
...it's about examining existence itself. And getting freed from perception.
All is well until that last quote. Seems to me were we to get freed from perception, we would likewise become freed from existence. Cogito ergo sum, once again, and if I cease thinking (i.e. cease perceiving), I cease existing.Gonzo,
First it must be clarified what perceiving is. So we are all on the same page, hopefully.
The Shurangama Sutra
The Buddha, Sakyamuni, once asked twenty five Bodhisattvas to explain enlightenment and how they arrived at it.The Bodhisattva of wisdom, Manjushri, was then asked to judge which one was most suitable for humans to use. He determined the perceiver of sounds has the most suitable practice (quickest way to enlightenment). The perciever of sounds is he who hears the cries of the world, notable in the Lotus Sutra. Avalokiteshvara (India), Kuan Yin (China).
Kuan Yin's Shurangama Sutra deals directly with perception as a non-constant experience and shows us directly what is constant and permanent. Its a meditative application but can be useful here as discussion.
The story of the practice tells that when Kuan Yin was human and practicing to attain enlightenment, she often meditated near the ocean. Many of you Zen purists should appreciate this. In other words, not words, lol, but dealing with hearing attachments.
Upon awaking one morning Kuan Yin heard the ocean surf breaking the silence, then she noticed the surf ceased and the silence resumed. Then came the surf again and thus the silence ended. Kuan Yin became aware then of hearing two things: the surf and the silence, but upon this she also realized it was impossible to hear both simultaneously, because the sound of surf made the silence cease and the silence was only perceived by the cessation of the surf.
Kuan Yin then understood that both of these sound objects had something in common, both arose and ceased. This is perception of objects, in this case sound-objects, a non-constants always in flux. Impermanence. Thomas Anderson in the Matrix, Neo out of the Matrix, the fears of Thomas Anderson giving way to become the fearless hero Neo, the fears returning to Neo to then take the form of Thomas Anderson again. Perceptual relocations that cannot be sustained indefinitely. Surf and silence.
Kuan Yin's ultimate realization was it was her sense of hearing consciousness that made it possible to detect both the sounds and the silence (because silence is a sound too). If silence were a true cessation of sounds then the returning of the surf would not have been possible. So in conclusion, Kuan Yin understood her sense of hearing was the constant, permanent and unchangeable aspect that enabled perception to occur. Furthermore, this ability was not dependent on the presence of or absence of sounds.
Now I realize alot of arguments can be rasied at this point such as, what if a person is deaf? Or what about when a person dies? etc. imo, the Shurangama Sutra should not be taken so literal. Kuan Yin's approach is a meditative application one can use. Also the discussion of it alone can be enlightening.
Aside from the direct application of, here is what the teachings are pointing to: that objects rise and fade, and we have learned to follow them and attach to them as absolutes. For example when I say Marilyn Monroe, most people will get an image of her in her 20's, maybe wearing that white dress and seductive smile to the camera. But what about her when she was 5, 10, 15 years old? The constant flux of her is not what is apparent, what is apparent is a snapshot view, this is the attachment aspect...failing to see the non-constant for what it is and in such ignorance assigning it with a permanence it has not. Things are perceived but then taken as constants in such perceptional apprehensions when they are absolutely not this way. So its just that we fail to see this is what we are doing all the time. We are making things permanent when they are not. Attachment to what is perceived is the cause of this.
Getting back to Kuan Yin's approach, hearing consciousness is what is permanent. Its not the same as what is heard. It is not dependent on the hearing of sound objects.
You, Gonzo, think of perception as the ultimate. But upon examination its seen that perception is the flux of objects reflected by thought. However, there is a constant that can account for reflection upon of sound and silence, light and darkness, large and small etc. Duality is not the end of the road, there is beyond this duality an experience not dependent on the dual equation. This constant is still part of dependent arising but it is permanent, whereas perception is impermanent. So what's being introduced now is consciousness. What Buddha achieved was he got beyond impermanent, cyclic existence, and accessed permanent nature, called the Buddha-nature.
Does essential Zen talk about the Buddha-nature and if so what is its understanding of it?