07-24-2010, 12:05 AM
Gonzo wrote:tiff wrote:I think of working towards getting off the wheel of death and rebirth and moving on to other levels of effort. ~Gonzo
Can you be more specific about what this entails? How does one get of the wheel of death and rebirth, and what exactly are other levels of effort?Another tough one.
First, this requires a belief in the theory of reincarnation, that being essentially the wheel of death and rebirth. Of the sources I've read in re reincarnation, perhaps the most profound for me was (no laughing), "The Michael Book" by Chelsea Quinn Yarboro (and no, I didn't care for "Seth Speaks").
Tiff wrote: Not necessarily reincarnation but more specifically cyclic-existence in which the belief in reincarnation is included. This is in support of ignorance being the cause of such and hence we are not aware of being enlightened. So we have to work to clear obscurations. What you seem to state elsewhere is enlightenment "already is", ok, fine, I do not disagree, but I maintain we have work to do to get to this direct experience of full enlightenment, and now here you are agreeing with me (though you may not realize it) about getting off the wheel of death and rebirth, so you are agreeing here that we have work to do to "achieve" full enlightenment, even though you maybe don't like it worded that way (achieve).
In conjunction with that, in a rather oblique manner, are also the works of Robert Monroe, sort of the father of astral travel.
The theory is we gradually evolve through various lifetimes, experiencing being both male and female, all the horrors, all the joys, all the business imaginable of being in human form. We each have a basic personality type that remains constant throughout, however, each existence is frought with different difficulties if you will...i.e., lessons to be learned. We progress through various soul levels - infant, baby, young, mature, old - and eventually, we "graduate", having learned all we can from being in human form.
According to Monroe's "trip reports", beyond the realm of human, lie at least seven more levels, and these really are what I was referring to. They have names and some description, but I would have to dig them up. The process, however, appears to be the same...more lessons, more learning, more experience.
In addition, in one of your posts you provide a link to "rebirth" in the quoted article in Wikipedia concerning Buddhism.
Tiff wrote: Its not me who is contesting the idea of awakening (getting out of cyclic existence "death and rebirth"). Its you who has been saying all along that we have nothing to achieve in Buddha nature because we are already that. And I'm okay with your definition in terms I would not deny all are enlightened, but I believe we need to realize it (work to do) and again, here in your post above you are supporting this act of "awakening to" as a process, so you are contradicting yourself from previously when you said there is nothing to do or awaken to, don't you see?
Can you be more specific about what this entails? How does one get of the wheel of death and rebirth, and what exactly are other levels of effort?Another tough one.
First, this requires a belief in the theory of reincarnation, that being essentially the wheel of death and rebirth. Of the sources I've read in re reincarnation, perhaps the most profound for me was (no laughing), "The Michael Book" by Chelsea Quinn Yarboro (and no, I didn't care for "Seth Speaks").
Tiff wrote: Not necessarily reincarnation but more specifically cyclic-existence in which the belief in reincarnation is included. This is in support of ignorance being the cause of such and hence we are not aware of being enlightened. So we have to work to clear obscurations. What you seem to state elsewhere is enlightenment "already is", ok, fine, I do not disagree, but I maintain we have work to do to get to this direct experience of full enlightenment, and now here you are agreeing with me (though you may not realize it) about getting off the wheel of death and rebirth, so you are agreeing here that we have work to do to "achieve" full enlightenment, even though you maybe don't like it worded that way (achieve).
In conjunction with that, in a rather oblique manner, are also the works of Robert Monroe, sort of the father of astral travel.
The theory is we gradually evolve through various lifetimes, experiencing being both male and female, all the horrors, all the joys, all the business imaginable of being in human form. We each have a basic personality type that remains constant throughout, however, each existence is frought with different difficulties if you will...i.e., lessons to be learned. We progress through various soul levels - infant, baby, young, mature, old - and eventually, we "graduate", having learned all we can from being in human form.
According to Monroe's "trip reports", beyond the realm of human, lie at least seven more levels, and these really are what I was referring to. They have names and some description, but I would have to dig them up. The process, however, appears to be the same...more lessons, more learning, more experience.
In addition, in one of your posts you provide a link to "rebirth" in the quoted article in Wikipedia concerning Buddhism.
Tiff wrote: Its not me who is contesting the idea of awakening (getting out of cyclic existence "death and rebirth"). Its you who has been saying all along that we have nothing to achieve in Buddha nature because we are already that. And I'm okay with your definition in terms I would not deny all are enlightened, but I believe we need to realize it (work to do) and again, here in your post above you are supporting this act of "awakening to" as a process, so you are contradicting yourself from previously when you said there is nothing to do or awaken to, don't you see?