07-25-2010, 12:06 AM
Gonzo wrote:Tiff wrote:Gonzo, just so your contradictions are crystal clear to you...
"So, as with awakening, it's not something to be accomplished since it already is."~ Gonzo
"I think of working towards getting off the wheel of death and rebirth and moving on to other levels of effort." ~Gonzo
"We progress through various soul levels - infant, baby, young, mature, old - and eventually, we "graduate", having learned all we can from being in human form." ~Gonzo
in other words, awaken to another level.
"According to Monroe's "trip reports", beyond the realm of human, lie at least seven more levels, and these really are what I was referring to. They have names and some description, but I would have to dig them up. The process, however, appears to be the same...more lessons, more learning, more experience." ~ Gonzo
more awakening to.
So in one breath you say nothing to awaken to, then in another you describe a very distinct process of evolution towards....realizing the buddha-nature because its is not heir apparent to us and thus we need to progress through stages to realize it.
We have a problem with the definition of "awaken". What you call awakening I call learning, or evolution as a process of self-discovery. The "awakening" I refer to is supposedly the process of achieving enlightenment, either the gradual or the sudden...also that state alluded to in Plato's analogy of the cave.
Words are only meant to get to the understanding at root. The understanding that we both share is that all beings have work to do to realize enlightenment. And the reason this arose is you said about essential Zen, "Essential Zen says there's no such thing as Buddha-nature, just as there's no such thing as awakening."
I'm saying to you that even you do not believe this. You do support a process, if you prefer not to call it awakening, it still is by another name the same quality we both refer to. So Gonzo I really don't see why you maintain we have any different views on this at all. Nor how Essentuial Zen has a different view. Our nature is already enlightened and we awaken to this gradually via process, clearing away obscurations.
"So, as with awakening, it's not something to be accomplished since it already is."~ Gonzo
"I think of working towards getting off the wheel of death and rebirth and moving on to other levels of effort." ~Gonzo
"We progress through various soul levels - infant, baby, young, mature, old - and eventually, we "graduate", having learned all we can from being in human form." ~Gonzo
in other words, awaken to another level.
"According to Monroe's "trip reports", beyond the realm of human, lie at least seven more levels, and these really are what I was referring to. They have names and some description, but I would have to dig them up. The process, however, appears to be the same...more lessons, more learning, more experience." ~ Gonzo
more awakening to.
So in one breath you say nothing to awaken to, then in another you describe a very distinct process of evolution towards....realizing the buddha-nature because its is not heir apparent to us and thus we need to progress through stages to realize it.
We have a problem with the definition of "awaken". What you call awakening I call learning, or evolution as a process of self-discovery. The "awakening" I refer to is supposedly the process of achieving enlightenment, either the gradual or the sudden...also that state alluded to in Plato's analogy of the cave.
Words are only meant to get to the understanding at root. The understanding that we both share is that all beings have work to do to realize enlightenment. And the reason this arose is you said about essential Zen, "Essential Zen says there's no such thing as Buddha-nature, just as there's no such thing as awakening."
I'm saying to you that even you do not believe this. You do support a process, if you prefer not to call it awakening, it still is by another name the same quality we both refer to. So Gonzo I really don't see why you maintain we have any different views on this at all. Nor how Essentuial Zen has a different view. Our nature is already enlightened and we awaken to this gradually via process, clearing away obscurations.