07-25-2010, 12:06 AM
Tiff wrote:Words are only meant to get to the understanding at root.Indeed. And the word "awaken" has many nuances of meaning which I think are quite relevant here. In other words, it is not, as my grandmother used to say, a matter of picking the fly **** out of the pepper.
The literal meaning obviously is to waken from sleep. The meaning we are dealing with here, however, is a philosophical one, a matter of awareness entering a new state. Essentially it is an analogy.
Tiff wrote:The understanding that we both share is that all beings have work to do to realize enlightenment. And the reason this arose is you said about essential Zen, "Essential Zen says there's no such thing as Buddha-nature, just as there's no such thing as awakening."OK. Yet another tack.
There's another quip from The Blue Cliff Record, a koan actually, that goes like this:
"Teacher, what is Nirvana?"
"What did you call it before you opened your mouth?"
The notion here could as well be applied to enlightenment. In other words, before you encountered the word and the description of the word, was there such a thing? The same goes for awakening.
At the moment I regard the notion of enlightenment as a rather clever trick similar to the tricks don Juan pulled. For example: find your hands in dreaming. The real purpose of that is to get the reader to pay attention to his dreaming. The greater lesson is to learn to become lucid. Likewise, the notion of enlightenment is really a similar encouragement to pay attention to your being...discover the answer to "Who am I?"...achieve the totality of yourself, in don Juan's words.
I still maintain this process is one really of self-discovery, of the uncovering of true nature, a major purpose of recapitulation.
Tiff wrote:I'm saying to you that even you do not believe this. You do support a process, if you prefer not to call it awakening, it still is by another name the same quality we both refer to. So Gonzo I really don't see why you maintain we have any different views on this at all. Nor how Essentuial Zen has a different view. Our nature is already enlightened and we awaken to this gradually via process, clearing away obscurations.Perhaps we are saying the same thing, however, I'll stand by the essence of the prior quote...the notions delude people, when they are taken literally.
The literal meaning obviously is to waken from sleep. The meaning we are dealing with here, however, is a philosophical one, a matter of awareness entering a new state. Essentially it is an analogy.
Tiff wrote:The understanding that we both share is that all beings have work to do to realize enlightenment. And the reason this arose is you said about essential Zen, "Essential Zen says there's no such thing as Buddha-nature, just as there's no such thing as awakening."OK. Yet another tack.
There's another quip from The Blue Cliff Record, a koan actually, that goes like this:
"Teacher, what is Nirvana?"
"What did you call it before you opened your mouth?"
The notion here could as well be applied to enlightenment. In other words, before you encountered the word and the description of the word, was there such a thing? The same goes for awakening.
At the moment I regard the notion of enlightenment as a rather clever trick similar to the tricks don Juan pulled. For example: find your hands in dreaming. The real purpose of that is to get the reader to pay attention to his dreaming. The greater lesson is to learn to become lucid. Likewise, the notion of enlightenment is really a similar encouragement to pay attention to your being...discover the answer to "Who am I?"...achieve the totality of yourself, in don Juan's words.
I still maintain this process is one really of self-discovery, of the uncovering of true nature, a major purpose of recapitulation.
Tiff wrote:I'm saying to you that even you do not believe this. You do support a process, if you prefer not to call it awakening, it still is by another name the same quality we both refer to. So Gonzo I really don't see why you maintain we have any different views on this at all. Nor how Essentuial Zen has a different view. Our nature is already enlightened and we awaken to this gradually via process, clearing away obscurations.Perhaps we are saying the same thing, however, I'll stand by the essence of the prior quote...the notions delude people, when they are taken literally.