07-26-2010, 12:06 AM
Tiff wrote:If you agree with me there was no first cause, you can only conclude all phenomena arises together, interdependently. Also if you agree no first cause, you cannot assign thought as the cause of everything else.
I didn't agree...I said I didn't know its origin, and further, if I did know its origin, it would have no relevance to me.
Tiff wrote:You said earlier "the world is created with our thoughts"
To clarify, once again, I didn't say it...Gautama said it, or is reported to have said it, second line of the Dhammapada. I do, however, agree with it still.
Tiff wrote:..., but here in this post you are agreeing that there is no first cause (no independent creator), which I am glad you are agree and we have got to this juncture. So I have to point it out then, that you should not go back and make thought a first cause if you do not support the idea of first cause.(see above re agreement.)
In my opinion, there is no conclusive way to prove a first cause, despite Nargarjuna's logic (which I still fail to understand), nor to prove essence is empty, or perhaps that phenomena are empty of essence. Further, as I have said, even if those concepts could be proven, to me, they would have no relevance. On the other hand, I do have my own proof of the power of imagination, which I can equate with Gautama's statement.
You have implied earlier that understanding what Nagarjuna is talking about has practical applications in your life, and I presume in some way that equates with your own understanding of enlightenment. I've opined here and elsewhere that enlightenment is a personal notion, and further, that my own interpretation is that it is "genuine contentment". I continue to focus my own attention on the matters at hand, the juicy business of moment to moment existence, and therefore, my own notion of enlightenment functions within those confines.
I didn't agree...I said I didn't know its origin, and further, if I did know its origin, it would have no relevance to me.
Tiff wrote:You said earlier "the world is created with our thoughts"
To clarify, once again, I didn't say it...Gautama said it, or is reported to have said it, second line of the Dhammapada. I do, however, agree with it still.
Tiff wrote:..., but here in this post you are agreeing that there is no first cause (no independent creator), which I am glad you are agree and we have got to this juncture. So I have to point it out then, that you should not go back and make thought a first cause if you do not support the idea of first cause.(see above re agreement.)
In my opinion, there is no conclusive way to prove a first cause, despite Nargarjuna's logic (which I still fail to understand), nor to prove essence is empty, or perhaps that phenomena are empty of essence. Further, as I have said, even if those concepts could be proven, to me, they would have no relevance. On the other hand, I do have my own proof of the power of imagination, which I can equate with Gautama's statement.
You have implied earlier that understanding what Nagarjuna is talking about has practical applications in your life, and I presume in some way that equates with your own understanding of enlightenment. I've opined here and elsewhere that enlightenment is a personal notion, and further, that my own interpretation is that it is "genuine contentment". I continue to focus my own attention on the matters at hand, the juicy business of moment to moment existence, and therefore, my own notion of enlightenment functions within those confines.