08-31-2010, 12:00 AM
Wei Shan Yang wrote:Lunoor wrote:Wei Shan Yang wrote:
"Its only a perceptual experience of such (so the potential to be completely free is available)."
name me an experience that
doesn't include perception...
I'm glad you asked this, because its a subtle distinction actually. We have the perception of 'whatever it is', and yet not attached to it. Such as, have you even had the experience of being in the midst of anger and yet so completely not attached at the same time? Its almost like you are viewing yourself from another perspective that has no cares and sees whats happening and also what is happening, the anger, just plays out like a play, and you do feel it too, but the detachment makes it subtly different in experience. I used the example of anger, any emotion would have sufficed.
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This is an experience which includes perception, it doesn't matter whether it is a subtle perception or a run of the mill perception, experience and perception are the right and left hand in hand.
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Having experienced this myself, and having it occur now on a continual basis, I can only call it one thing, Controlled Folly. Actually I could call it whatever I want, but to use a recognizable term. And talking about it maybe obscures it, but the alternative is to not talk and I say its better to talk about it.
"And yes it helps us evolve in the relative sense."
The whole idea of evolution is fulcrumed on the perception of pinpointed occurrences relative to other pinpointed occurrences of relative beings and other
relative phenomena-ing� in linear time and is a paradigm created by relative beings to describe what they think they see...which is elephant talk for: how can one evolve in an un-relative sense?
You don't evolve in the un-relative sense. There's a quote here in the forum from DJ that says the warrior strives to change even whilst knowing there is nothing to change. That quote hits upon this very understanding.
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It was your statement: "And yes it helps us to evolve in the relative sense." that implied that you might think we do evolve in an un-relative sense otherwise why not simply state "and yes it helps us to evolve" or would that be too much of an endorsement for your comfort level?
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Maybe the part about my communications here that you are not understanding is I am not advocating a withdrawal from the experience of the relative. Its just when you have your other foot in un-relativeness, the elephant is not solid, he's empty, always was but you see it clearly now.
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We always have a foot planted in the un-relative, it just isn't commonly seen, I think working with the tonal imprints helps clear the view and then we know we have a foot in each.
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"I was embracing my childhood "wounds" as powerful imprints that helped me become strong. "
That's not how I look at it, if I were to put it in similar terms I would say something more along the lines of "my childhood wounds suck! Damn those conditions coupled with my genetic tendencies held this deliciousness back for so many years, and still puts a pinch on now and again, OUCH that HURTS!" and by experiencing that where I am atness as the feelings occur a some while later I can laugh and sing somehow. But that is a reduction--on with complicated life!
Well, keep in mind Lunoor, this is what you wrote about wounds previously that tells a different story and is what I was referring to:
Post 44 - "So for me these wounds have been the path to my heart, the doorkeeper at
the gate of the enlightenments I have experienced. I didn't get here by
an out of the blue change of perception, I got here by effort and grace."
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They are indeed, and I say OUCH and that HURTS along the way at times. Sometimes when I am at the apex of my tears they turn to laughter and bring a light in.
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So you are saying your wounds "got you to your heart" and that's the same as how I used to talk about them. And its not untrue actually, its just I don't identify with that any longer, and can't go back to that due to the energy already being freed up and can't reassume previous form (I don't think). Nor would I want to go back to that. Not that its a bad experience, I know its a very good experience.
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I simply said the wounds are real, in addition to working on those I also like playing, singing, dancing, trancing, writing, gardening and aweing at the mystery of it all.
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"That was how I viewed things then. You can see now my view has changed."
No I can't see that wei shan, I am reading that you say your view has changed but since I have very short term experience with you I haven't been there to witness that.
I just mean my posts here don't advocate that view and since I told you what the view was, you can see it here by comparison. That is, currently I am not talking about wounds as being devices for anything relevant to me now.
"When you have no pity, you can experience unyielding compassion in that moment."
What good is a breast that doesn't yield? When no milk flows how's the babe to grow?
Pity is actually an ugly thing. So to have no pity is to be free of it's influence. People can commit suicide because they are overcome with pity. So its definitely to be avoided. And to those wallowing in it, they would ask, "how could I avoid it, its right here biting away at me like a hungry beast! And you expect me to just drop it?" And thus they reveal why it is hideously ugly and devouring. The breast of pity does not yield any milk, only suffering and pain. Milk is seeing pity is nothing, its an illusion, a false path not worth going down. But, as I said before, its often the trip into this hell of pity and back that is the only way to realize this.
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I don't experience this breast with milk as wallowing self-pity, I experience it as compassion, it doesn't make me want to commit suicide it make me want to dance and shout and sing! I think you are looking at a different breast than I am.
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" If you don't release your identity with wounds completely, you become a righteous crusader (for the wronged victims). Nothing wrong with that, but there's more for us, to be completely free."
not this not that without this without that
"And by no means do I think it happens over night nor is it something you don't constantly have to work at. But from my own experience, shifts do happen suddenly, granted its probably initially due to years of effort (like that which you express here) that finally give way to a breakthrough."
I agree that shifts can happen suddenly, but they won't become integrated in the experience if the work isn't being done leading to imbalance in one's person.
Can you elaborate on what you mean here?
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Yes, I recall an experience of sudden perceptual change; it lasted around two weeks and was a dramatic lessening of plus change in the content of my internal dialogue accompanied by feelings of peace and bliss, however at that time I was a long way from peace and bliss overall and when the experience left I thought I was enlightened and special because of it, it inflated my ego causing further unbalance. As I do the work I find it grounds me and helps keep such perceptual shifts from becoming episodes of the same.
-----------------------------------------------------------------------
It seems pretty obvious to me that you consider yourself to be more advanced than I am,
and that you set out to prove it in words, however I don't see it that way. I will leave you to ponder
that for yourself or not, as you like it.....I am
stepping out of this labyrinth of words for now.
A parting video:
"Its only a perceptual experience of such (so the potential to be completely free is available)."
name me an experience that
doesn't include perception...
I'm glad you asked this, because its a subtle distinction actually. We have the perception of 'whatever it is', and yet not attached to it. Such as, have you even had the experience of being in the midst of anger and yet so completely not attached at the same time? Its almost like you are viewing yourself from another perspective that has no cares and sees whats happening and also what is happening, the anger, just plays out like a play, and you do feel it too, but the detachment makes it subtly different in experience. I used the example of anger, any emotion would have sufficed.
-----------------------------------------------------------------------
This is an experience which includes perception, it doesn't matter whether it is a subtle perception or a run of the mill perception, experience and perception are the right and left hand in hand.
---------------------------------------------------------------------
Having experienced this myself, and having it occur now on a continual basis, I can only call it one thing, Controlled Folly. Actually I could call it whatever I want, but to use a recognizable term. And talking about it maybe obscures it, but the alternative is to not talk and I say its better to talk about it.
"And yes it helps us evolve in the relative sense."
The whole idea of evolution is fulcrumed on the perception of pinpointed occurrences relative to other pinpointed occurrences of relative beings and other
relative phenomena-ing� in linear time and is a paradigm created by relative beings to describe what they think they see...which is elephant talk for: how can one evolve in an un-relative sense?
You don't evolve in the un-relative sense. There's a quote here in the forum from DJ that says the warrior strives to change even whilst knowing there is nothing to change. That quote hits upon this very understanding.
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
It was your statement: "And yes it helps us to evolve in the relative sense." that implied that you might think we do evolve in an un-relative sense otherwise why not simply state "and yes it helps us to evolve" or would that be too much of an endorsement for your comfort level?
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Maybe the part about my communications here that you are not understanding is I am not advocating a withdrawal from the experience of the relative. Its just when you have your other foot in un-relativeness, the elephant is not solid, he's empty, always was but you see it clearly now.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------
We always have a foot planted in the un-relative, it just isn't commonly seen, I think working with the tonal imprints helps clear the view and then we know we have a foot in each.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
"I was embracing my childhood "wounds" as powerful imprints that helped me become strong. "
That's not how I look at it, if I were to put it in similar terms I would say something more along the lines of "my childhood wounds suck! Damn those conditions coupled with my genetic tendencies held this deliciousness back for so many years, and still puts a pinch on now and again, OUCH that HURTS!" and by experiencing that where I am atness as the feelings occur a some while later I can laugh and sing somehow. But that is a reduction--on with complicated life!
Well, keep in mind Lunoor, this is what you wrote about wounds previously that tells a different story and is what I was referring to:
Post 44 - "So for me these wounds have been the path to my heart, the doorkeeper at
the gate of the enlightenments I have experienced. I didn't get here by
an out of the blue change of perception, I got here by effort and grace."
--------------------------------------------------------------------------
They are indeed, and I say OUCH and that HURTS along the way at times. Sometimes when I am at the apex of my tears they turn to laughter and bring a light in.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------
So you are saying your wounds "got you to your heart" and that's the same as how I used to talk about them. And its not untrue actually, its just I don't identify with that any longer, and can't go back to that due to the energy already being freed up and can't reassume previous form (I don't think). Nor would I want to go back to that. Not that its a bad experience, I know its a very good experience.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------
I simply said the wounds are real, in addition to working on those I also like playing, singing, dancing, trancing, writing, gardening and aweing at the mystery of it all.
----------------------------------------------------------------------------
"That was how I viewed things then. You can see now my view has changed."
No I can't see that wei shan, I am reading that you say your view has changed but since I have very short term experience with you I haven't been there to witness that.
I just mean my posts here don't advocate that view and since I told you what the view was, you can see it here by comparison. That is, currently I am not talking about wounds as being devices for anything relevant to me now.
"When you have no pity, you can experience unyielding compassion in that moment."
What good is a breast that doesn't yield? When no milk flows how's the babe to grow?
Pity is actually an ugly thing. So to have no pity is to be free of it's influence. People can commit suicide because they are overcome with pity. So its definitely to be avoided. And to those wallowing in it, they would ask, "how could I avoid it, its right here biting away at me like a hungry beast! And you expect me to just drop it?" And thus they reveal why it is hideously ugly and devouring. The breast of pity does not yield any milk, only suffering and pain. Milk is seeing pity is nothing, its an illusion, a false path not worth going down. But, as I said before, its often the trip into this hell of pity and back that is the only way to realize this.
---------------------------------------------------------------------------
I don't experience this breast with milk as wallowing self-pity, I experience it as compassion, it doesn't make me want to commit suicide it make me want to dance and shout and sing! I think you are looking at a different breast than I am.
-------------------------------------------------------------------------
" If you don't release your identity with wounds completely, you become a righteous crusader (for the wronged victims). Nothing wrong with that, but there's more for us, to be completely free."
not this not that without this without that
"And by no means do I think it happens over night nor is it something you don't constantly have to work at. But from my own experience, shifts do happen suddenly, granted its probably initially due to years of effort (like that which you express here) that finally give way to a breakthrough."
I agree that shifts can happen suddenly, but they won't become integrated in the experience if the work isn't being done leading to imbalance in one's person.
Can you elaborate on what you mean here?
---------------------------------------------------------------------------
Yes, I recall an experience of sudden perceptual change; it lasted around two weeks and was a dramatic lessening of plus change in the content of my internal dialogue accompanied by feelings of peace and bliss, however at that time I was a long way from peace and bliss overall and when the experience left I thought I was enlightened and special because of it, it inflated my ego causing further unbalance. As I do the work I find it grounds me and helps keep such perceptual shifts from becoming episodes of the same.
-----------------------------------------------------------------------
It seems pretty obvious to me that you consider yourself to be more advanced than I am,
and that you set out to prove it in words, however I don't see it that way. I will leave you to ponder
that for yourself or not, as you like it.....I am
stepping out of this labyrinth of words for now.
A parting video: