09-18-2010, 12:00 AM
lex icon wrote:
For our friend in the bar the question, “where were you before you were in this bar?” only has an impact because it never occurred to him to question this and try as he may he is unable to sufficiently answer the question because he does not know. Because he does not know for sure he is susceptible to the influence of a plausible explanation whether true or false just as long as it makes sense and pacifies the existential anxiety.
Now if like we are fond of saying this waking life is but a dream why should there be any existential anxiety about this? We don’t know where we are from precisely because this is a dream and my notion of myself only began when the dream began and will evaporate when the dream ends. This notion of myself as perceived in this dream is just part of the dream. It has no existence other than as an image of the dream. But we are attached to the perception of ourselves in the dream and do not realize that it is just part of the dream and we become energetically, intellectually and emotionally invested in the perception as if it were independently real. Of course such attachment wishes to prolong the perception of this “dream” self beyond physical death so we start creatively inventing plausible scenarios that would facilitate such a desire.
It is our conscious ideas and unconscious beliefs about cause and effect that are at the bottom of all this. Without getting beyond cause and effect there is no possibility of waking up! That is why someone like Nagarjuna is so impactful when it comes to this. He is able through use of the intellect to bring the intellect to its own limit! He is able to expose all the contradictory teachings of cause and effect. He is able to take the intellect by the hand and walk it to the very edge of its domain and say, “See. This is as far as you can go!” He is able to do this because he has seen beyond the teachings of cause and effect.
Lex,
Let me first say thank you for taking the time to post all of this. I find it very valuable.
What you've posted seems to tie into three other sources I'm working with. The first in Dreaming, and it's very similiar to what you mention here:
"This notion of myself as perceived in this dream is just part of the dream. It has no existence other than as an image of the dream. But we are attached to the perception of ourselves in the dream and do not realize that it is just part of the dream and we become energetically, intellectually and emotionally invested in the perception as if it were independently real. Of course such attachment wishes to prolong the perception of this “dream” self beyond physical death so we start creatively inventing plausible scenarios that would facilitate such a desire."
The second resouce is Curtis Sensei. Your words are very similar to his. To this, I give you kudos, as he is well versed in this! (As you seem to be as well!)
Third is the author, Jed McKenna. Your last line is very similar to when he says, "Done." "Done is done." Which you mention below:
"He is able to expose all the contradictory teachings of cause and effect. He is able to take the intellect by the hand and walk it to the very edge of its domain and say, “See. This is as far as you can go!” He is able to do this because he has seen beyond the teachings of cause and effect."
As to the 'Lujan words being posted here' issue, I just don't understand it. That bruhaha occured prior to my joining this discussion group, and I don't know anything about Lujan or his teachings, or the differences of opinion which seem to have peoples knickers in a bunch. What you posted here seems quite relevant, regards of the author.
May I ask a question of anyone who agrees or disagree's with Lujans words: If you have anything that adds to Lujans work, or, contradicts Lujans work or writings, please post it. If not, to me it's just complaining, thus, what's the issue?
SHM
P.S. - Lex, please continue on if you'd like to add anything further in regards to the exploitation, or, anything else. At this current time you've given me plenty to work with and I have nothing to add. Feel free to ask me questions as well, but I'll have to admit, you're much more adept at this than I am, and I may not be able to provide you with a sufficient reply
P.S.S. - I will be going to see the movie, Inception, either today or tomorrow. I've been meaning to see it since it arrived, but for one reason or another it's not gotten accomplished
Thank you once again!
For our friend in the bar the question, “where were you before you were in this bar?” only has an impact because it never occurred to him to question this and try as he may he is unable to sufficiently answer the question because he does not know. Because he does not know for sure he is susceptible to the influence of a plausible explanation whether true or false just as long as it makes sense and pacifies the existential anxiety.
Now if like we are fond of saying this waking life is but a dream why should there be any existential anxiety about this? We don’t know where we are from precisely because this is a dream and my notion of myself only began when the dream began and will evaporate when the dream ends. This notion of myself as perceived in this dream is just part of the dream. It has no existence other than as an image of the dream. But we are attached to the perception of ourselves in the dream and do not realize that it is just part of the dream and we become energetically, intellectually and emotionally invested in the perception as if it were independently real. Of course such attachment wishes to prolong the perception of this “dream” self beyond physical death so we start creatively inventing plausible scenarios that would facilitate such a desire.
It is our conscious ideas and unconscious beliefs about cause and effect that are at the bottom of all this. Without getting beyond cause and effect there is no possibility of waking up! That is why someone like Nagarjuna is so impactful when it comes to this. He is able through use of the intellect to bring the intellect to its own limit! He is able to expose all the contradictory teachings of cause and effect. He is able to take the intellect by the hand and walk it to the very edge of its domain and say, “See. This is as far as you can go!” He is able to do this because he has seen beyond the teachings of cause and effect.
Lex,
Let me first say thank you for taking the time to post all of this. I find it very valuable.
What you've posted seems to tie into three other sources I'm working with. The first in Dreaming, and it's very similiar to what you mention here:
"This notion of myself as perceived in this dream is just part of the dream. It has no existence other than as an image of the dream. But we are attached to the perception of ourselves in the dream and do not realize that it is just part of the dream and we become energetically, intellectually and emotionally invested in the perception as if it were independently real. Of course such attachment wishes to prolong the perception of this “dream” self beyond physical death so we start creatively inventing plausible scenarios that would facilitate such a desire."
The second resouce is Curtis Sensei. Your words are very similar to his. To this, I give you kudos, as he is well versed in this! (As you seem to be as well!)
Third is the author, Jed McKenna. Your last line is very similar to when he says, "Done." "Done is done." Which you mention below:
"He is able to expose all the contradictory teachings of cause and effect. He is able to take the intellect by the hand and walk it to the very edge of its domain and say, “See. This is as far as you can go!” He is able to do this because he has seen beyond the teachings of cause and effect."
As to the 'Lujan words being posted here' issue, I just don't understand it. That bruhaha occured prior to my joining this discussion group, and I don't know anything about Lujan or his teachings, or the differences of opinion which seem to have peoples knickers in a bunch. What you posted here seems quite relevant, regards of the author.
May I ask a question of anyone who agrees or disagree's with Lujans words: If you have anything that adds to Lujans work, or, contradicts Lujans work or writings, please post it. If not, to me it's just complaining, thus, what's the issue?
SHM
P.S. - Lex, please continue on if you'd like to add anything further in regards to the exploitation, or, anything else. At this current time you've given me plenty to work with and I have nothing to add. Feel free to ask me questions as well, but I'll have to admit, you're much more adept at this than I am, and I may not be able to provide you with a sufficient reply
P.S.S. - I will be going to see the movie, Inception, either today or tomorrow. I've been meaning to see it since it arrived, but for one reason or another it's not gotten accomplished
Thank you once again!