09-23-2010, 12:00 AM
~
“The idea of a self that originated (is born) just does not hold up to logic, the very means that was believed to give it validity in the first place. That’s when you begin to smell a rat, when you see that even the logic it’s founded on is not logical.”
Ah yes. This was the spark for me. I love logic as a tool and use it to…devour itself. I also enjoy sitting or meditation. Action/Surrender.
“But, why not both as realities? Why is it even felt there is a need to decide”?
Key point here, indeed. Dualism. Good/bad, right/wrong, action/result. We live in a dualistic world and it’s helpful to understand this…it’s just that it’s not the entire picture.
"Its not that we should not be concerned about death, its that we should unravel the twisted version of reality that holds us in fear and thus a control that is not our own doing. The fear will drive us, but we reach a point where fear no longer drives us when we no longer fear dying. Suffering can still motivate us then. Unlike fear, which is an unwanted outcome of events, suffering is what’s happening here and now. So the wish to end all suffering becomes more prominent than the previous fear. Both were useful allies so both are functional and aid in evolution. And death as an adviser works when a sense of self is intact as an active idea, once that is vanquished completely though, suffering becomes the next hurdle. Maybe it does not happen quite like one after the other, but more often simultaneously. But I do believe that suffering is the last obstacle rather than death. So after we lose death as an advisor, we still have suffering as an advisor and we keep pressing for evolution away from it.”
Agreed.
Death occurs always in a here/now environment. Death is never related to our ideas of the future, present and past. Nor is it to our idea of here and there. Death, as an energetic phenomenon, compresses all of our five measuring units into one. The energetic shock brought about by this is of such magnitude that our life force is dissolved, unable to keep our energetic fields together anymore.
As to suffering, it is indeed an obstacle!
SHM: Dreaming is used to move it; Stalking is used to anchor it.
WEI: Great insight!
Now here’s a question for you: Do you see any way we can we get beyond these two precepts? And, if so, how?
SHM: Well, I don’t know. I’m wondering if there’s a need to get beyond these. How about this idea. Perform ‘inception’ on ourselves in Dreaming, plant a new idea within ourselves? Not good or bad, just an expanding of our awareness, pushing further…
“But for a person on the path of liberating all this, understanding the hidden core Lex alludes to is essential”!
Speaking of Lex, where’s he at?
“Essence as I'm referring to it is anything which evokes fear of death. But its not something feared at first, essence is at first loved, adored by all who conceive of it, until certain thoughts, inceptions, occur and seem to pose a threat to the essence so beloved. This essence takes different forms depending on the awareness of the one experiencing it. The fact that it takes so many forms gives it a quality of being something truly unique, but again fear stalks it constantly. The uniqueness is the pleasure derived from it even if short-lived. Pain (fear) is endured only because of its (essence's) promising fulfillment (which never arrives) of security”.
Fear of death is certainly present. I’ll also say that fear of no-self comes into play once the fear of death is understood. Once again, another obstacle
As to pain…would you say fear is the action that leads to pain, the result?
Aaron Niemzovitch, a chess master, once said that the threat is stronger than the execution. This is a basic principle, which has been corroborated by centuries of practice. Extrapolating this to the everyday world, it could be said that fear of pain is stronger than pain itself.
There is no spiritual pain. There is only physical pain. The social order's last line of defense is sustained on weapons that cause physical pain and death. The only interest of "spiritual" or mental pain, in terms of this conspiracy, is that it eventually develops into physical pain.
There are two kinds of pain. The natural one, felt by the body through the nervous system as a cold abstract feeling, and the one composed by the sum of this natural pain and fear. This type of pain we call "disease", and we also have a very thorough taxonomy for its diverse manifestations.
Pain does not kill. Pain is a sensation, as cold and abstract as the sensation of hunger, thirst, sexual arousement, sneezing, itching and practically an infinite number of physical and sensorial possibilities.
Pain plus fear, however, do kill. This combination is lethal. It's like the case of two gasses that are completely harmless when isolated, but highly explosive if mixed.
Pain and fear create a vicious cycle of the most energy-draining patterns. They build a mutual feedback that compromises all of the physical body's resources until they are no longer sufficient to stop death. This loss of energy is manifested as an uprising depression which is common to all people affected with disease.
Fear of upcoming pain increases pain, since it compromises new energetic resources of the body in order to attack this fear. Fear of death as an unknown, alien factor increases the speed of the vicious cycle of illness.
I’m getting off-track, so I’ll end here
SHM
“The idea of a self that originated (is born) just does not hold up to logic, the very means that was believed to give it validity in the first place. That’s when you begin to smell a rat, when you see that even the logic it’s founded on is not logical.”
Ah yes. This was the spark for me. I love logic as a tool and use it to…devour itself. I also enjoy sitting or meditation. Action/Surrender.
“But, why not both as realities? Why is it even felt there is a need to decide”?
Key point here, indeed. Dualism. Good/bad, right/wrong, action/result. We live in a dualistic world and it’s helpful to understand this…it’s just that it’s not the entire picture.
"Its not that we should not be concerned about death, its that we should unravel the twisted version of reality that holds us in fear and thus a control that is not our own doing. The fear will drive us, but we reach a point where fear no longer drives us when we no longer fear dying. Suffering can still motivate us then. Unlike fear, which is an unwanted outcome of events, suffering is what’s happening here and now. So the wish to end all suffering becomes more prominent than the previous fear. Both were useful allies so both are functional and aid in evolution. And death as an adviser works when a sense of self is intact as an active idea, once that is vanquished completely though, suffering becomes the next hurdle. Maybe it does not happen quite like one after the other, but more often simultaneously. But I do believe that suffering is the last obstacle rather than death. So after we lose death as an advisor, we still have suffering as an advisor and we keep pressing for evolution away from it.”
Agreed.
Death occurs always in a here/now environment. Death is never related to our ideas of the future, present and past. Nor is it to our idea of here and there. Death, as an energetic phenomenon, compresses all of our five measuring units into one. The energetic shock brought about by this is of such magnitude that our life force is dissolved, unable to keep our energetic fields together anymore.
As to suffering, it is indeed an obstacle!
SHM: Dreaming is used to move it; Stalking is used to anchor it.
WEI: Great insight!
Now here’s a question for you: Do you see any way we can we get beyond these two precepts? And, if so, how?
SHM: Well, I don’t know. I’m wondering if there’s a need to get beyond these. How about this idea. Perform ‘inception’ on ourselves in Dreaming, plant a new idea within ourselves? Not good or bad, just an expanding of our awareness, pushing further…
“But for a person on the path of liberating all this, understanding the hidden core Lex alludes to is essential”!
Speaking of Lex, where’s he at?
“Essence as I'm referring to it is anything which evokes fear of death. But its not something feared at first, essence is at first loved, adored by all who conceive of it, until certain thoughts, inceptions, occur and seem to pose a threat to the essence so beloved. This essence takes different forms depending on the awareness of the one experiencing it. The fact that it takes so many forms gives it a quality of being something truly unique, but again fear stalks it constantly. The uniqueness is the pleasure derived from it even if short-lived. Pain (fear) is endured only because of its (essence's) promising fulfillment (which never arrives) of security”.
Fear of death is certainly present. I’ll also say that fear of no-self comes into play once the fear of death is understood. Once again, another obstacle
As to pain…would you say fear is the action that leads to pain, the result?
Aaron Niemzovitch, a chess master, once said that the threat is stronger than the execution. This is a basic principle, which has been corroborated by centuries of practice. Extrapolating this to the everyday world, it could be said that fear of pain is stronger than pain itself.
There is no spiritual pain. There is only physical pain. The social order's last line of defense is sustained on weapons that cause physical pain and death. The only interest of "spiritual" or mental pain, in terms of this conspiracy, is that it eventually develops into physical pain.
There are two kinds of pain. The natural one, felt by the body through the nervous system as a cold abstract feeling, and the one composed by the sum of this natural pain and fear. This type of pain we call "disease", and we also have a very thorough taxonomy for its diverse manifestations.
Pain does not kill. Pain is a sensation, as cold and abstract as the sensation of hunger, thirst, sexual arousement, sneezing, itching and practically an infinite number of physical and sensorial possibilities.
Pain plus fear, however, do kill. This combination is lethal. It's like the case of two gasses that are completely harmless when isolated, but highly explosive if mixed.
Pain and fear create a vicious cycle of the most energy-draining patterns. They build a mutual feedback that compromises all of the physical body's resources until they are no longer sufficient to stop death. This loss of energy is manifested as an uprising depression which is common to all people affected with disease.
Fear of upcoming pain increases pain, since it compromises new energetic resources of the body in order to attack this fear. Fear of death as an unknown, alien factor increases the speed of the vicious cycle of illness.
I’m getting off-track, so I’ll end here
SHM