Sock Puppet Policy

[watergaze]

Hello everyone, we are entering the try-out of a new sock puppet policy = filter out the sock puppets (meaning that accounts identified as sock puppets will be banned).

I would like members to understand that this is not an easy thing to do (and might take time - as in an account might have to post at various times before a pattern is seen etc). One has to check every IP (and many members have numerous IPs) in the admin panel and also check it in an IP locator through an external site (to see if the IP jumps around the globe, or stays within same city etc). Yuku does not have a very user-friendly system for this.
Since this is a new policy starting now, I am only going to check people being active from now onwards (plus there is no need to spend time on inactive accounts). And we will see how it goes..

If there is a reason why you might be falsely identified as a sock puppet it is on you to inform us of this before we start digging into it and before it becomes an issue (in this thread here or in a pm).

If you are changing to another account as your primary account you should inform us before you do this, or else your new identity account will be banned..

If you suspect someone of being a sock puppet you are welcome to write us here about it, for us to look over. However, as mentioned above, previous accounts will be left alone unless they become active in posting from now onwards.

[Sacateca]

I say: ANYONE who puts you through such a pain in the ass in detecting them is not fit to be in this forum!! They are up to no good so let them do no good somewhere else!

[Littlepaw]

I once was a member on quantum Shamans forum when it was lively, I like Della who started the forum.  I usually am lucky in creating good relationships with people but at some point  I had said something in a post or more than one post which I felt would make me look bad in the eyes of others.  As a solution I created a fresh account to be seen in the eyes of others how I wanted to be.  It had a negative affect on me realizing that everyone treated me with new respect like a stranger. It is funny that one of the teachings as expressed by Theun Mares is to treat everyone, friends, relatives, work colleagues strangers, as strangers. I can't help but feel that my reason for wanting a fresh start in the first place was invalid because it was based on my perception of how others must have judged me assuming that others will judge me the way I had judged myself.

[watergaze]

NagualHuman has been banned due to double account posting. His other account is now the only one around.

I have checked every IP that has posted since the introduction of the new policy.. and, as previously announced, all discovered sock puppets will be banned. Plus, if the sock puppet behavior is done repeatedly, all accounts of that person may be banned along with the sock puppet.

[Draco Fellicci]

I has been informoed that charlila is an sock puppet of shamanka, because I hold positive interest in the health of this forum and proper energetic exchange made by so, I would like this case to be seriously investigated and solved by the forum admin authorities, presuming that this is true, anything that would be said by the either shamanka or charlila to this case, cannot be considered trustworthy.

[Nagual LoneWolf]

Charilla is not Shamanka I can attest. Also let there be peace with the Scout1 controversy as well.

[watergaze]

Draco switched his primary yuku account, he is now known as Daraawiish.
He wrote a pm saying that he apologizes for not letting us know and that it is not his intent to do sock puppeteering. I hope he informs us next time when he switches accounts and saves us some work.

and thnx to members who keep an eye on sock puppet stuff

[Captain Know]

Hi.  I've been a occasional visitor here over the years, though mostly a reader.  the energy on most of these toltec forums can get too negative unfortunately, so I tend to not comment.   Anyway, I came across this thread.  What is a "sock puppet"? 
I gather it has something to do with our 'user name".  A couple of years ago I was trying to create a new separate user name for this forum alone but the system was difficult to navigate.  (I was first on Yuku for a Dallas Mavs Basketball forum and didn't want that tag while on this forum...or any others for that matter, but it seems that the Yuku system won't let us change.  Kinda like, if you're born Irish, you're always Irish.  The original tag follows you every other forum.)   Anyone know of an easy way to create a new user name?

[watergaze]

Hi.
Captain Know wrote:What is a "sock puppet"?
Info on sockupuppets is easy to find, for example on [link=http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sockpuppet_(Internet)]wiki[/link]: "sockpuppet poses as an independent third-party unaffiliated with the puppeteer". Read up on the link for history, info and various uses of sockuppets. And then [link=http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Sock_puppetry]this link[/link] for examples that concern wiki and their take on it.

For us here it means members here should only use one username. You are treated as a person not as a username. It is your choice what username/account you pick to be visible/represent you and if for some reason you wish to change it you need to be transparent about it and inform us.
Captain Know wrote: was trying to create a new separate user name for this forum alone but the system was difficult to navigate. (...) Anyone know of an easy way to create a new user name?
It is easy to sign up. You click on the sign up button on the top of the page (it is not visible for logged in members, first you need to click on Logout). Fill in the few details on the page you are redirected to and voila you got an account with a .sorcery tag (which will not be visible on this site, but will show up on other yuku sites if you make posts there)

I removed your tag here in our forum, since you said you would prefer to not have it. Hope you like

[Guest]

Just some common knowledge for any interested ADMINS:

Yuku is unable to accommodate proxy server tracking at this time. This means anybody who has been banned by username will continue being banned by that username.

Anybody banned by IP address will continue being banned by that IP address.

The issue arises when banned individuals create a new username and change their IP. Changing IPs are relatively easy manually (simply by accessing msconfig or accessing any number of proxies located around the world) or accidentally (if people access from a router that refreshes IP addresses every couple of days or even weeks, they'll suddenly find they have access to places where they were once banned.)

The solution:

Each Yuku site must actively monitor their own individual users for personality quirks, habits, grammar, things of that nature. This leaves things pretty non-exact since paranoia has a tendency to make many people appear as someone they are not.

Given the science behind bans (which are essentially quite useless on Yuku sites) it becomes a game of who-has-more-time-on-their-hands. Will it be the admin or the trollers? You've gotta figure too, admins are usually people who have a life of some kind, of higher intelligence (one might assume), so their time is limited and the time they do have they'd probably enjoy it by NOT cleaning up the muddy footprints left by irresponsible children.

So where does that leave things? Usually it leads to only the people causing a disturbance in the peace (or force, if you prefer) being banned; since there's no way to know for sure who somebody is when they change both their username and IP. Unless of course the individual shares their identity with others. Then again, they might be lying in order to get another user banned.

Anyway, it can become a complicated process and just because one account is disabled is not a sure-fire way to keep the person out.

The more you know...

[Captain Know]

Thanks for removing the "DallasBasketball.com" tag.  I still may create a new forum user name here, but if I do, I'll announce it in the Introduction section stating "Captain Know' is now "....".   I assume that is the proper way to take care of it?

[Mornings Son]

thx baykok ))

[Mornings Son]

Capt. Know - that is the way!

Glad that you are so straight and honest, thanks !!

[watergaze]

Captain Know wrote:Thanks for removing the "DallasBasketball.com" tag.  I still may create a new forum user name here, but if I do, I'll announce it in the Introduction section stating "Captain Know' is now "....".   I assume that is the proper way to take care of it?
yes that is the way to do it (it is ok also if you let us know in this sock puppet thread). And you are welcome. (sry for the late response, I thought I responded already hehe).

[Guest]

Update for the sock puppet policy. There is no way to ban socks. Anyone using a proxy can change their IP address and username. Then you'll be looking for consistency in IPs. Using a Virtual Private Network (VPN) will give consistent IPs with any new username.

At the end of the day, there is no sure-fire way to ban socks.

How will the site accommodate (enforce rules for) socks who are computer literate?

[watergaze]

there are very few people who go through all the bother of hiding.

[Finwe]

People maybe, not others, there are some for whom it is the easiest way to achieve their goal,which without hiding is either impropable in their view or unrealizable.

[Julio Juliopolis]

For a site that's never had a problem with sock puppets, this topic being resurrected seems a bit strange.
But on a more metaphysical level aren't we all, in "real" life, just sock-puppets anyway?
Think about it.

[watergaze]

hello people, I apologize I let this one questionable account, obviously a sock puppet, write a few posts, instead of banning it off the bat. Now people seem to have developed theories as to who is the sock puppet. well.. it is like this.. I noticed this find dharma girl sock puppet right away, but it just made one post and I was eer lazy since nothing happened for a longer time after that. Now somehow when I was not looking the post count came to 9, so eerm Gomen'nasai
I already contacted the individual responsible: billy. And shall proceed to banning the dharma girl and all of that
It is the case that I do sweep rounds concerning the possible sock puppets. Also I am very disappointed with you guys, since me and Andrew were not the only ones who noticed the sock puppet posting in his dream thread but apparently others later also thought find dharma girl is a sock puppet when the account started posting again, someone could have reminded me that this account needs to be banned when it started posting again. I did not realize it until now when I read billy's thread due to the other stuff going on that needed my attention.
Seems some of you do like sock puppeteering

[watergaze]

So what do you guys and gals suggest I do about accounts that post using an annonymous proxy?
How do we verify the person's identity? Or do we just ban such accounts if they do not use a normal IP after asking them to?

[Guest]

There's a few options. The easiest method is to track IPs. When that's not possible, I'd suggest taking things on a case-by-case basis. If there's a new member causing issues, then a single warning--then banning is appropriate. If it's a long-standing member, then more leeway can be given. Making it inconvenient for people to use proxies or other means is the goal.

There's no real way to stop sock-puppets, it's going to happen. It's only an issue when it becomes an issue. For those who use sock-puppets and invest each one into this site, I sort of think they earn the right to be here--also, if we can't track them and they're not breaking rules, there's nothing to be done about them anyway.

We can't stop what we can't track. On the bright side, not many people are talented enough to have a horde of sock-puppets at their disposal. It's an issue of time, interest, and creativity. Most don't have all three--and those who DO, are people I'd enjoy interacting with anyway xD

Edit: I didn't answer your other questions:

How do we verify identity?
We don't.  Some people deliberately use proxies to protect their privacy.  There's no reason for us to know identity, legally.  

Do we ban accounts if they don't use a normal IP after asking them to? 
There's many reasons why people use false IPs that are NOT related to griefing or spamming.  You certainly CAN run the site in that manner.  I've seen other sites use that approach.  Personally, it's a lot to ask from members and many responsible people will stop going to sites (speaking generally here) if their identities will be revealed.  Also, normal IPs can also be false IPs--what I think you mean here might be unstable IPs--ones that tend to change frequently.  I'd say take it case-by-case, just my suggestion.

[watergaze]

thanks for responding. I am specifically interested if to exclude annonymous proxy as an option for our members to use. As in when I check the IP on google it says it is not a 'real' IP, so it is clear in that sense. Case by case is more demanding from me and less objective, but thankfully we do not have this happen often.

legally is a bit fluid as we are all from different places (where is yuku based?). I find suspicious when people are so weird about their IP, they seem to put importance on something that otherwise would not have gotten much attention. They either like being mysterious or they want to hide - both is not exactly great. Plus mostly the IP says the location of some near town, not where you actually live. I also am careful with disclosing that and I prefer to tell where I am from at my own pace. But its only about 4 people who may see your IP depending on where you post, and only one for sure. I consider that info private, plus I would not care about checking IPs had we not tried to rid our forum of socks .

I do not think it is enough to reveal your identity if they know where your IP is located. It only serves to match an approximate area (which can be many hours away even) where you post from and even if you do have a static IP all oyu need to do is say use your cell phone's provider and either make a hotspot for yourself or use your phone to post. The IP really just shows us the socks, not much else.

[Guest]

IPs reveal zip code and although it's not the same as a street address, that's a bit too specific for my likes. I don't mask my IP at Sorcery because I know some of you personally, but I often mask my IP. I vaguely recall Gonzo uses proxies and he's not a sock user. There are others like him, who value privacy.

You can do an anonymous IP ban, that would make it easier.

But there's a very simple way around using anonymous IPs too. That's not going to solve the sock issue.

Nothing can accommodate the issue of socks, that's what I'm saying. A Yuku ban may keep out some, but there's no way to ensure those you ban remain banned. There's alternatives to every scenario of banning.

The IP issue isn't so black and white or objective. You can try keeping the issue objective as possible but then you'd be like wolf. You assume you're banning completely, but it's false security.

There's no way to ensure a complete banning. No matter the protocol you eventually decide to use. I'm not saying don't ban, I'm just saying there's no way to ensure a ban sticks. Absolutely no sure-fire method.

Use what's easiest and makes sense for you. What keeps most socks away is the inconvenience of using their socks. Banning forces another sock to be deployed, after awhile that process gets boring and tedious for most.

[watergaze]

The anonymous that you see on yuku is for users who click in their profiles that they want to stay anonymous (then their nickname does not appear in the who is online list), it is not related to IP coming from a proxy. I wonder if there might be a setting like you write about, not that I know of.

I see my IP is not related to my zip code at all, so it depends. Sometimes it gives a location on the other side of the country (that has a different zip code).

Also if you look at it like there is no way to ensure not to have sock puppets, which is true, you cna also say with the same breath that there is no way to ensure your privacy. Just depends on the skills of the person that wants to achieve one or the other.

[Guest]

Oh! That anonymous feature on Yuku must be new (within the last year), I wasn't aware that was a setting. Pfft, THAT would be an easy fix to ban those accounts..makes plenty of sense to do that.

True, there is no such thing as complete privacy. There's always a way to be found. Yes, and IPs may disclose completely random locations.