Water and Fire Gazing and Seeing - Your Experiences?

[Gugeyewalker]

Been practising gazing. Got curious about mirrors in water but don't have one, so settled for water gazing (small to medium sized waves and flows) while shutting off the internal dialogue.

Also a little bit of flame gazing.

Tried gazing at some birds and plants as well but I feel this is a bit advanced for me...

Ummm....I have reached certain 'truths?' about the nature of water mostly, and flame.

I would like to know if any of you have reached the same conclusions if you watergaze or firegaze. IF seeing is sensing the essence of things, I need to verify if others are seeing the same truths about water and flame...not what we have been taught or even observed with our senses and minds, but more awesome than that.

[Gugeyewalker]

Nothing? IS no one willing to go and gaze at some water?

C'mon!

[watergaze]

well, I am curious as to the truth you discovered
It seems a bit far fetched to expect others saw the same thing as you, no? . There are so many things to see and discover..

[Gugeyewalker]

No lol you first. If I say what I felt you might just copy me or be inspired by what I saw. Real seeing is supposed to be verifiable among others - even though its really hard to put seeing into words. So please...you first lol! And I hope it is similar - not that I can see a lot just sayin'. If I am seeing its the very basics...

So I know you gaze at water - what have you learned about water from doing this?

[watergaze]

I can write something if asked and since you are interested - provided I find a nice time and state to do so (sadly this whole week I came home already tired and ready for food and sleep. this is a very busy time for me, so... I did not come to the site to write my experiences, I just check in on it to see all goes well admin wise etc). You, on the other hand started a thread in which you obviously want to share your personal experience. it is a bit sad you got to wait for me to do so
hehe
The experience I am most inclined to share at the moment has to do with the senses too . I do not know why you think you can command what I am inclined to share, I shall share what I find is good to share. Seems logical enough . What has most luminosity at this time is best for sharing I find.

Also do not think people want to copy you, that is a bad approach when you are writing/sharing stuff. imo

I have learned different things about water, it is hard to know what you are aiming for, plus you probably have something in mind that might be new for me, I'd like that..

There is difference with gazing at running water, fast streams vs slower running streams too, and water of a calm lake. There is a difference gazing at the surface and gazing in the deeper parts of water. Gazing goes often inward, that is what i do most. Inward-outward. I learn more about myself and about the specific intents I set than about water itself, but doing these types of exercises also leads to a little experience with water as a kind of bonus . I do not have much experience with gazing at ocean or sea water, as I live inland. But I have had powerful experiences with seas, not of a gazing nature. The awareness of the sea is marvelous .

I do not know much about fire..

I know a bit about healing and how it is approached differently when done with water and when done with fire.

Now to what I would want to share.. it is about the wind and water. I had a (for me) mindblowing realization that water and wind are so similar they are as if the same - for a while they were like one during my experience, almost undistinguishable. I realized that in many respects they act the same and have similar effects. On the awareness. Fast running water and a stronger wind are very sharp (for lack of a better description) and can tire one (make our awareness blunt) if exposed too long, but can be refreshing in the beginning, help focus. but what was most fascinating for me was that the wind and water feel the same on the skin. I realized this one nice evening in the sea. the wind was blowing and the sea has its natural flow/current. And I was just enjoying myself and at some point it dawned on me, since I was experiencing and not in my head but in my body. being in water I did the same as i do in the wind (similar gestures enjoying the element's flow). And being above water and under water felt the same on my skin. Under the water the movement of the water felt like wind on my skin. It was just the perfect temperature to highlight this comparison.

Then I pondered this a bit and realized that of course fire has similar consistency.. it also feels in that way on the skin, it is just that it gets too hot if it touches the skin too long.. but for soft touching of say a candle flame it is very much similar. Now, I do not think I discovered something no one else before me did or whatever , that is also not the point. It was new to me and everything that one discovers for themselves is special .

[Silver Wind]

You remind me of what Leonardo Da Vinci said, that he felt air was like water, birds seemed to swim like fish along air currents. He was always integrating the elements of the universe. Another example is the human body: the skeleton is like stones - structures that frame and support, the veins like rivers and tributaries, the expansion of lungs breathing the ebb and flow of the ocean, our life force fire-like in nature. So gazing takes us into these primal states of awareness and silences our internal dialog because we are going into pre language states communing with the elements.

I don't have any recent experiences to share on the gazing, I just wanted to mention the above because what you write is so similar to what Da Vinci said. And point not is who said it, but that observations do indicate truths. And, there are many ways/things to observe definitely. But that was spot on in it's similarity of seeing.

[watergaze]

thank you, Silver Wind, for mentioning this. I had no idea Leonardo Da Vinci was that interested in the elements.
What seems interesting to me in my tale (apart from the obvious discovery that I made) is that this information was actually first discovered by my body (my body reacted in similar ways and did the same movements and gestures instinctively quite some time before I had the perfect temperature conditions and closed my eyes and eventually put two and two together to realize stuff). I do not find that seeing is limited to sight or some metaphysical grasping of things, for me it is that but also very much linked to other senses. hearing, feeling of all sorts, even the sense of smell. This is why I thought what I say is not what Gugeye means, cause he seems to want some experience or knowledge that is not so linked with observable senses . But then how else is verifiable truth to be verified?
Gugeyewalker wrote:IF seeing is sensing the essence of things, I need to verify if others are seeing the same truths about water and flame...not what we have been taught or even observed with our senses and minds, but more awesome than that.
I do think that truth can be discovered and seen through the senses. If we see luminosity, is that not part of the sense of seeing? And if we smell flowers while listening to a song and no flowers around, or if we hear a whole orchestra in the sound of one drum... that can all lead to seeing. It is just that we tend to focus too much on sight, so the phrase became linked to sight too. but hearing is specifically also pretty important (not to mention feeling). But, I stray from topic of water and fire gazing , so I let this rest, as it is not crucial here. Just now I see it also links to what I said in another thread in Art of Stalking about the body. fluidity of the body. if one's body is allowed to be fluid and enjoy itself then interesting stuff follows .

I love the water

so now I am curious to finally find out about Gugeye's truth about water and fire

[Gugeyewalker]

Okay...indeed it is kind of unfair to say 'no I won't share until you do!'

Maybe the topic should be about seeing and not so much fire and water. First let me establish, somehow, what 'seeing' seems to be from my point of view. It is bodily sensations that seem to (in my case almost whisper) the nature of things. Most of the time I feel a vibration sensation on the left side of my face, neck, and most especially the left side of my stomach. And when I do I know certain things to be true in spite of what my mind wants to believe. It does not replace the senses, but it seems indifferent to the senses mostly. The senses (especially sight) seems to only serve to select what I want to focus on.

I do not know if it works the same way for everyone. There have been rare times though when my left eye seems to go sorta cross involuntarily when I have these sensations (it moves on its own). So I have been putting forth a real effort lately to try to enhance, whatever this is. I have to admit though, I had not really been able to get these sensations until after an ecstasy experience about 16 years ago. Ever since then the sensations (no more ecstasy) have persisted.

I had been re-reading the Fire from Within. You remember the 'mirror in the water' trick?

-----------------------------
"Don Juan went on explaining that the ancient Toltecs had divided their secret knowledge into five

sets of two categories each: the earth and the dark regions, fire and water, the above and the below,

the loud and the silent, the moving and the stationary. He speculated that there must have been

thousands of different techniques, which became more and more intricate as time passed. "
-----------------------------------------------

I think the above is basically anthropologically correct based on readings outside of Castaneda...
And then ....

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"In the case of their category of fire and water, they divided fire into heat and flame, and water into

wetness and fluidity. They correlated heat and wetness and called them lesser properties. They

considered flames and fluidity to be higher, magical properties, and they used them as a means for

bodily transportation to the realm of nonorganic life. "
---------------------------------------------

I am not really interested in non-organic life per se.

Anyway water conclusions based on gazing along the relatively calm shoreline of a bay - connected to the ocean.
Maybe You know this already and simply took this simple thing for granted. Water is aware. It is aware of itself, meaning it senses itself whether it is seperated by puddles, containers, thunderclouds, or even the water inside our bodies. It is packed full of potential energy that changes forms as it transits.

For the earth, it is the most powerful substance there is.

Finally, it vibrates or exists across other dimensions - it is on the edge of our band of attention so it is kind of like...on the borders of our perception. It is a membrane and accessible on another dimension as well as ours...hard to explain.

And I really do beleive that proper seeing may be open to different explanations, but it is not open to interpretation. You either perceive what is to be real, and it is consistent with what others see, or it isn't real.

I am curious about the universe, so seeing 'together' is important to me to cut out any false interpretations.

I had not considered wind and water to be the same. Certain there is water 'in the air' as vapor. But the flow of wind being similar or the same as the flow of water seems to be more of an insight about the energy of motion inside the medium of wind or water being the same. Maybe wind and water is the same, but have not tried to explore or 'see' wind. Avid windsurfer here, so certainly my body must know something about wind.
I want to say that air is different.

On fire - this is harder. There is something about fire I am reluctant to say because I think it may be wrong but hell I Will say it anyway. That is that fire, IS the same entity everywhere, whether it be the sun or a candle flame, when you gaze into a candle flame you might as well be gazing into every other flame in the world, or the sun itself, and perhaps far beyond.

[Silver Wind]

Fire being the same everywhere, I've had that same observation. Mine's based on seeing flame is pure. Whereas, earth, water and air can be diluted. Example: a lake can be murky or clear, the air can be fresh or polluted, earth merges with all things. But flame does not merge, it consumes what it touches and stays pure in it's center, such as the flame of a candle that consumes the wick while remaining pure flame and cannot be touched.

[watergaze]

heya you two. got a half hour before I need to get going again, so decided to stop, sit down somewhere and check on this thread.. curious like I said .

Yes, I was not claiming air and water are exactly the same. But the fluidity of the wind (air) and the fluidity of the water, that is I think what I basically observed/experienced and linked it to fire too. Maybe one could go further and say something is similar in air and water, for sure there is quite a lot similar, as both can make these fluid motions. They are also all encompassing and merge, in the sense how we see water come together easily when 2 bodies of water touch, same with air. Within the space that they are they create one body. So does fire if it has enough fuel in the joined area - if fuelling it is not an issue the flames join just like water joins. Water and air are not dependent on third party fuel stuff to help create them, at least not that overtly. Not to mention water and air intermingle without 'killing' one another. Vapour in air, bubbles in water.
The elements are pretty fascinating. But yea, given the excerpt of CC's Fire from Within, it seems obvious I was observing the fluidity of water/currents, air/wind and fire/flame and noticing their similarity, how it is in all three elements in basically the same way. Case in point for myself.. already I don't know how many-eth memo to re-read CC (I read the books only once many years ago before I knew anything much heh).

Water being aware is indeed for me a very basic common life fact . I think I even mentioned above the incredible awareness of the sea.

Talking of bodily sensations that accompany seeing. I would say there are such, and they can be very helpful. One needs to be attentive to one's body to track it down. It is good to do, because then later it is easier to spot the voice of seeing.

Since transportation was mentioned I would like to add that gazing is a helpful tool for transportation.. for example as preparation for one's OBE journeys.

Coming to awareness of water. I have been checking on rivers on various parts of their journey. The water is not negatively affected by the pollutants and awareness of the cities etc. Not that I have seen... observation still in progress lol. It is we that see pollution and say it is polluted /diluted or what, but water similarly like fire just is. Fire can have different ways of burning too, depending on what fuels it and what mixes into that. it can have different colors just like water.. Or it can spit when it has less pure fuel etc. Fire can just be glowing embers I would say (with no real flame to be seen by the observable eye, until of course one puts in something and/or blows).
I would agree with the flame/fire observation of how fire seems less individual and more universal than say water, but I also think I have not done enough with fire and it might be individual too, just in a bit of a different way. But even if I do think it might be individualized in some ways, it does not take away the fact that it is all linked.
Maybe what is different in fire is the fire spirits .

[Silver Wind]

About the merging elements and flame being pure, neither is better than another. And if the elements can show anything, they most definitely show versatility of life...to think just 4 main elements make up the universe by combining and transmuting. Thus there is no ideal state. Each teaches us something useful. Like Da Vinci did not think air and water are the same, however he used his understanding of water and fish, compared it to air and birds, and used his gathered knowledge to construct the prototype flying machines.

In the example of murky waters, they can be tested to show what's in the water system and cities periodically do this, so water helps and it's not just an ideal clear water that should exist. Related to this, when in China I learned the old feudal lords ate with sterling silver chopstix because if someone poisoned their food the silver would turn black and warn them...so water, air, earth,...fire carry traces and history and show us things, practical (this includes seeing because seeing is THE most practical ability imo).

[Gugeyewalker]

You two are referring to motion and how it impacts those other elements, water, fire, and air.

So then there is motion itself. If we are seeing glimpses of it and immersing ourselves in the motion of wind and water...I would like to figure out some techniques, perhaps some kind of gazing, that can let us really 'see' motion.

Hehe, science tells us that even stationary objects are full of particles that move within them (at least electrons in covalant bonds)...of course these days even science is a bit stumped by how subatomic particles move. Have to put all that out of our mind though if we are to learn anything new.

There are some wind turbines up the road that I think I would like to have a go at. Like that knight who fought windmills as they are dragons!

[Silver Wind]

I like your idea Gugeyewalker. I also recommend star gazing. I know it seems off topic, but once I had an opportunity to star gaze for an hour, at a place one could see the stars. And this is one drawback of star gazing, as not everyone can easily get to a place to see them enough. After gazing, I lay out there on the porch, closed my eyes and had the longest sequence of imagery, movement, colors, and all of which appeared to be composed of these sub atomic particles you wrote about. All the scenes were constructed of bubbling atoms. I suppose gazing at other light sources could have this effect too, though one needs to be careful about fire/sun/light gazing and it's effects on eyesight. Another is moon gazing, though didn't get same results, got different but also good experience from that. And best of all with this gazing, or any gazing imo is how it impacts your dreaming soon after.

Thank you both for what you shared here thus far, it's reminded me of things, plus given me new insights and curiosities.

[Gugeyewalker]

Continue to do some gazing. A little bit of flame gazing and one session of gazing at sunlight refracted through a crystal. Have you ever seen that movie The Dark Crystal where the skeksis do their crystal ritual - it felt a who lot like that. I felt as if I could practically see the beam coming through the crystal.

Several nights ago I had done some candle gazing before bed. I change my gaze from the flame itself to reflections of the flame. I found that if I stare directly at the flame my eyes tend to get really hot and I can't do it.

I felt nothing new, other than a very nice state of internal silence. I fell asleep, and seemed to have sat up to see an opening with a fire-glow rim in front of me, just like it was a portal. I freaked, then woke up and sat up just as I had before in a waking state.

Going back to what I said before, if you look at one flame you might as well be looking at another in some other location. If you go back and read how and why light is produced according to science, it is because electron's shift their orbits within an atom and this produces a photon, a packet of light. This is also a part of quantum mechanics, because to observe any electron, what you observed can only be an electron that has already popped over to another orbit - you can only make a probability calculation of where the electron really is. In fact, in electronics we have to calculate probabilities of where electrons are to design small circuitry nowadays.

Electrons break all the rules of Newtonian physics, as energetic as those particles are...
Umm so yeah - I had been listening Michiu Kaku explain quantum entanglement just now.

Could it also be that our consciousness can behave the same way?

Here is where he explains it.

[Gugeyewalker]

http://www.youtube.com/v/yIaxfrEcFaw&ve ... a?t=24m17s

Go to about 24:17

[Silver Wind]

Neat program. I've listened to Michio Kaku before, he presents things well, it's good to listen to science to link to this path.

Yes, consciousness can behave same way, So this entanglement could be describing the double (dual self relationship) could it not?

In fact you demonstrated this dual self in your experience in dreaming and then repeated on waking (post above). We dream of the future (or see it in waking) way before it happens. Are we always 'chasing' consciousness? In other words, as in example, constraint motion of electrons that cannot be 'apprehended' and (faster then speed of) light produced in relation to observable awareness. Kinda goes with the dream within a dream proposition. That what we see no longer exists, and it's the 'light created' from the already escaped existence, hence dreaming within dreaming chasing after the uncapturable consciousness which is the relationship between 'double' and what we call our tonal self?

Ah yes, better to gaze at flame reflection on how it impacts the eyes and effects the body. Using some form of shielding the directness. Even using half closed eyes or peripheral angles.

[Gugeyewalker]

Man I LOVE this stuff...

Yesterday I went to one of my spots, really trying to intend to see the luminosity of pelicans and osprey with not much success. Instead I tried to get a sense of what Watergaze was alluding to. She is certainly right that there is one sort of fluidic force that drives the wind and water and it is the same. The 'Flow', and all the local life is intricately aware of it.

The pelicans when diving for fish - I really got a sense of an intense line projecting out from them into the water just before they dive.
I also get the sense that a bird's awareness or world, especially an osprey, is every bit as engulfing, rich, and complex as that of a person's. I got this sense as this osprey, although not moving much, seemed to look around and take in the seen in just about all directions around him. They dont move a lot but they really love to watch, almost as if they contemplate what they see, and they see a lot. Maybe people are dumbed down...

Anyway as I concentrate further to try to 'see' these birds various muscles spasm, this is a somewhat familiar sensation. One thing I felt that was different was some spasms and brief vibrations in my testicles...all my intent and I cannot 'see' a birds luminous sphere. Perhaps I need to save more up more sexual energy.

Last night we had quite a downpour. I had already been in an altered state from all my gazing earlier, then back to 'normal' when the rain hit. I took the opportunity to sense the water and stepped out to focus my attention on the streams of water as they fell from the roof. My whole head began to sort of vibrate without a thought for a moment and then went back to normal after a short time.

[Guest]