Saying Thank You

[Bob Carr]

This title is a chapter in Castaneda's "The Active Side of Infinity."




I dedicate it to a subject that we generally seem to avoid:




ATONEMENT




Also known as Step 8 at AA




I truly welcome all serious input on this subject as it is tied into Fate.

[Bob Carr]

"Judgement At Nuremburg"




Starring Spencer Tracy and a cast of the greatest from an old generation.




The story of what was likely the first time, and maybe the last, that FI was put on trial by human beings.

[seeitall]

I avoid ATONEMENT because I do not feel I would need it.

[Bob Carr]

That , of course is your choice.




In my case, I had a dream of prophecy, outlining yet another case of animal cruelty from my past, and pointing to writings by Castaneda concerning
atonement. Don Juan gave him some difficult chores around his recapitulations.




Maybe it's not necessary. I don't have answers and that is why I started this thread.




Perhaps my current activities are that atonement of which I speak. For one thing , I am much more cautious when I drive and do not create roadkill. Well,
maybe two times in the past 10 years, and both incidents were serious Omens for my knowledge.

[seeitall]

fact is I was not thinking about atonement with the past but more about what is coming


and is not going to be fun. I guess I missed that chance to have a chance. now atone with that. but there


is a self importance required, without self importance there hardly can be any need for atonement.


interesting topic, hope someone else will share some thoughts on that too.

[Bob Carr]

Uh, well OK?




I hope others look at this too. I have questions about it.




This is about the law of Cause and Effect. It is a scientific understanding such as in motion physics, but is also a Spirit and Behavioral issue in all
religious thought, if that's a proper way to put it.




You are right , and it is kind of a prophetic ability, to see the actions of today , and the ABC's of effect on the future of humanity.




I am all for collective activities (read political, somewhat) , but I have also come to an agreement that personal activities can either help or delay the
possibilities of progress for one and all.




My personal focus is on what is called Domestic Violence, with an emphasis on Personal Power issues. Meaning that those without a sense of personal power tend
to Bully others to make up for that lack. This applies to animals as well.




Hope I'm not getting too elite and that you get what I am saying.

[Bob Carr]

Chap 12 "Journey to Ixtlan




Don Jaun to Carlos: 'You cannot leave these desolate mountains without saying your thanks.' A warrior never turns his back to power without
atoning for the favors received. '




This same book makes it very clear what the principle is. It is about survival, and survival can only be achieved with wisdom born of knowledge found on the
path with heart.




A friend of a friend committed suicide over a job loss. I am at a loss for words. Maybe some know their time, maybe I will too.




I won't say it is a good day to die, now. I'd rather fight to the end. I also will use every power that I can gather , and I will learn to use that
power Dispassionately , even from the very gutter of the city.




From Chap 11 : ' One needs the mood of a warrior for every single act , he said. Otherwise one becomes distorted and ugly. There is no power in life that
lacks this mood. Look at yourself. Everything offends and upsets you. You whine and complain and feel that everyone is making you dance to their tune. You are
a leaf at the mercy of the wind. There is no power in your life. What an ugly feeling that must be! '




To hell with that . Find Wisdom and take charge from that place of Wisdom for this is our life , this is our fate. Don't be Dumbed Down!




Be the conductor on the underground railroad

[Bob Carr]

I have yet to explain the dream that was the source of this thread.




Some disclaimers: First , my dreaming is not Orthodox or well developed. Second, I see the 'Path With Heart' as a description of Ethics.




I had the dream twice, the second being more developed. I was to take responsibility for a number of dogs. It was daylight. Some of these dogs were
Beagles, an Omen to me as I once worked with Lab dogs , and I was less than kind. There was also a young man present, his age late 20's or early 30's.
He was apparenly also to be adopted and was seriously complaining about being within the same adoption system as the dogs--obviously an issue of
self-importance. Next , I was speaking to an older man , late 30's , about the dogs and what I was to do. We stood at a counter top , like in a produce
store. I had a strong feeling that this man meant to harm the dogs. This was perhaps an indication of my atonement and responsibilities , perhaps. At this
point I awoke , knowing that I had received an omen concerning my negative behavior in the past and that it was a lesson for all , as were the stories of the
same kinds of things that Don Juan told to Carlos as instruction.




Maybe many will not agree with me , but my perception is that before one can engage the Warriors' Way , one must travel the path of serious Self-Criticism
, and , that this path leads to humility. For one finds his criticism of others tempered by the common sharing of errors , or the FI , among all human beings.





Absolutism is not an answer , being available to Power is the solution

[Bob May]

"I hope others look at this too. I have questions about it.


This is about the law of Cause and Effect. It is a scientific understanding such as in motion physics, but is also a Spirit and Behavioral issue in all
religious thought, if that's a proper way to put it."




"ATONEMENT Also known as Step 8 at AA


I truly welcome all serious input on this subject as it is tied into Fate."




OK, let's get scientific. For every action there is an equal and opposite reaction. Newtonian Physics. The Hebrew Law of the Old Testament. Also known as
the Old Covenant (or contract) with God. Cause and effect.


Mankind asked for this covenant. They told Moses to go up the mountain and speak to God for them and whatever He said to do, THEY WOULD DO! They refused to
speak to God. They made promises they could not keep. No one ever kept that Law because it was based upon DOING, performance. Everyone was worthy of only the
curses contained in that cause and effect law. Atonement was a ceremony within that law. Once a year the people would list there sins and place them on a
"scapegoat" let loose in the wilderness to go out and die. Then the people would begin to sin again.




Now lets go forward in time. New law. New Covenant (or contract) with God. He set this up in advance knowing that mankind would fail in the attempt to keep the
Old Covenant. One man paid the penalty for everyone the "second Adam." The Atonement. The first screwed up royally and was ejected from Paradise and
it counted for everyone.


Quantum physics for every action there is not and equal and opposite reaction. Two identical objects can occupy the same space at the same time. Particles
blink in and out of existence for no apparent reason. the same particle can be in two places at the same time. Belief and expectation change reality. The
observer cannot observe without changing the outcome of the experiment. Both Newton and Moses are doing cartwheels in their graves.


The promise: "Abraham believed and it was counted as righteousness (right standing with God).",...Wait a minute!!! I though you had to work, to
actually do something. No, just believe and accept it. Not based upon performance, just belief.




Two descriptions of the world. Both true for the person experiencing each. Two realities occupying the same space at the same time. One tending towards guilt
and limitation, the other toward freedom and expanded Spiritual awareness.


"Once for All". That is the Atonement,.. for all sin, for all time for all people.


Even future sin? Of course, the atonement happened 2000 years before we were born and so long before we even commited our first sin.


Jesus said "I came to fulfill the law, not to destroy it." So, how did he fulfill it?


He died.


God had to become man so that man could fulfill the Old Law.


The New Law has different rules.


And we can pick which description of reality,.. Which law we want to live by.




Quantum physics have always been in play in the mechanics of the world even though we were unaware of it because it is invisible to the eyes of man.


So with Grace (the New Covenant). It has been in effect forever and has been even more available for the last 2000 years but likewise, it is
invisible.

[Hawkeye Crow]

I thought this thread was lost. Thanks for saving it. I'll try to answer Bob when I can.

[Hawkeye Crow]

Pennance is more correct. For nothing can be completely undone , and Christian atonement isn't about that anyway.




Being born-again? While a life can be remade, as Juan said about Carlos: we are still the same idiots as always.

[Hawkeye Crow]

This thing about the Holy Spirit. That to make it separate , a thing bestowed upon the deserving , is Elitist.




Perhaps we can consider the spirit holy , if we choose , but the truth is that Spirit has always been a part of this world ; another element like air and
water. It's always there and available to anyone who recognizes its existence and becomes available to it. Advisor , comforter , it is still part of the
knowable. God is the unknowable , and as soon as someone says , 'I know God' or ' I know God's purpose' , it becomes known and is no
longer God.

[Bob May]

"Pennance is more correct. For nothing can be completely undone , and Christian atonement isn't about that anyway."




Penance is Catholic not Christian. Like I said before don't lump everyone together because of what they call themselves.




"Being born-again? While a life can be remade, as Juan said about Carlos: we are still the same idiots as always."




Being "born from above" is a life changing experience. An awareness of something that the person was not aware of before.


To exclude idiots would be elitist.


But to stand up in front of a church and say the words and make a show of emotion is not what being "born from above" is. You are buying into
propaganda if you believe that.

[Bob May]

"This thing about the Holy Spirit. That to make it separate , a thing bestowed upon the deserving , is Elitist."




That is the doctrine of many churches and it is absolutely wrong. That is Old Tesament Law. Not Christianity, though those churches will call themselves
Christian.




"Perhaps we can consider the spirit holy , if we choose , but the truth is that Spirit has always been a part of this world ; another element like air and
water."




I would say rather that the world and all of manifestation is a part of or manifestation of Spirit. Air, Water, fire are all symbols showing us some of the
aspects of this Spirit by analogy.




"It's always there and available to anyone who recognizes its existence and becomes available to it."


That is Christianity, or should I say what Jesus taught? That is the New Covenant and rare is the church that teaches it.




"Advisor , comforter , it is still part of the knowable. God is the unknowable"




Those are functions of the One Spirit. When Don Juan said Power lead him to Carlos was he saying that he knew the unknowable?




" , and as soon as someone says , 'I know God' or ' I know God's purpose' , it becomes known and is no longer God. "


I agree with you here. We may get a sense of what we are supposed to do in this life, our purpose or destiny etc. That is recognising a leading and Don Juan
seemed to know his purpose as did Jesus in great detail.


But people who say "I know God" or "I know Jesus" are using "catch phrases" that go well in some particular churches as the
"lingo du jour."




"Advisor , comforter , it is still part of the knowable. God is the unknowable , and as soon as someone says , 'I know God' or ' I know
God's purpose' , it becomes known and is no longer God.




Any true Spiritual experience will leave you with a sense that there is so much more beyond what you experienced, and in a sense, moves God a little further
from you. You realize it is much bigger than you had imagined or can imagine.


But on the other hand there are certain things we can come to learn About God.


To move from the "fear of God" or "Awe" into realizing the "love of God" is an earth shattering experience.




Most religion is based upon the fear aspect. They block themselves from going any further.


And in my experience most spiritual understanding is gained after leaving such churches. And it is why I don't attend any.




Paul said that Jesus was crucified outside of the camp (the religious center of the time) and then said "Let us therefore follow him outside the
camp.."




I, as you, have no use for most churches that are out there. There may be some small groups that are trying to understand what Jesus was saying, but the large
churches have other concerns than spiritual progression.




Jesus said it best when speaking about the end times and what would come to pass in those (these) days;




"And Jesus answered and said unto them, Take heed that no man deceive you. For many shall come in my name, saying, I am Christ; and shall deceive
many."




It hit me one day like a ton of bricks that these decievers would not be saying that they, themselves were Christ, but that they would be saying that Jesus was
Christ.


Those decievers that he was warning us about were Christian Ministers.

[Hawkeye Crow]

The Holy Spirit is the usage of the New Testament , the book of Acts, never saw it in the OT , used in that way.




Atonement. Many churches use that word. It was just the best word I could come up with. I am aware of its semantic connotations ; guess I need another.
Where's my thesaurus?

[Hawkeye Crow]

Here is something worth saying Thank You about.




Yesterday , I stepped out on my north-facing front porch to view the thunderstorms , wondering if some of it would come my way. There were three hawks
cruising the valley , as there are always hawks or buzzards here.




Feeling elation at the sight , I raised my arms , moving my hands in a circular , welcoming motion. The birds approached , came low , and before I knew it ,
there were seven hawks circling above me at about 50-100 feet. What a blessing! I had the feeling that one might actually come to me , but I thought,
"I don't have a Falconer's bracelet. " One by one , the birds flew on , higher and higher , thousands of feet high. Something in me knew
that one of them might very well have come to me in peace and given exchange.




I was left with two distinct visions. One , I could clearly see myself as the hawks saw me , looking down upon this being on the porch. The other was an
impression that , although I could not see it , I had just witnessed the effect of the luminous fibers , and that that was the connection which drew the birds
to me.




Later , I re-watched my video about Francesco of Assissi, 'Brother Sun , Sister Moon ' , by Franco Zefferelli. I can suppose this is a
Sorcerer's Story of the reality , but it sure tells the tale , though somewhat dated , now. His 'Jesus of Nazereth' is still the best telling of
the 4 gospels I know of. Where Gibson's 'Passion...' was brutal in it's depiction of crucifixion , Zefferelli's depiction of
Herod's order to kill mothers and babies so as to eliminate competition, still resonates with me as real Martyrdom and more to the heart of the Jesus
story.

[Hawkeye Crow]

On my experince with the winged family : I read that we draw things to us. I was in a state of non-expectation , not thinking that what I was doing was
unlikely. There was a memory sense that luminous fibers were in play.

[Nagual LoneWolf]

Assemble your world.

[Guest]