Ancient Tongues

[Nagual LoneWolf]

Much of the world's oldest magicks were in different languages.Celtic,Atlantian,Druidic,Setish,Germanic,
Toltec,etc.Language is an important part of magic.Do you think english can properly complete with these ancient tongues when invoking spells or performing sorceries?L O N E W O L F

[Guest]

In a word - no. However, since this pitiful language has been drilled into our subconscious for so long that it has enough associations and correlations with it too suffice as a magical language. Though it is a pain in the arse a fair portion of the time.Arithion ~*~
AIM: Ufric
Peter_Reist@yahoo.co.uk
Mage of the Mists
TD'OF HIBIRI SI'AG MINYW'
Prava corrigere, et recta corroborare, et sancta sublimare. ~ Alcuin.
In the world there are only two tragedies. One is not getting what one wants and the other is getting it. ~ Oscar Wilde.
At last I caught what I was listening for...
the long drawn howl from over the hills,
a sound that was wilderness music...
something as free and untamed as there is on earth. ~ Sigurd F. Olson, The Singing Wilderness.[/i]

[Guest]

Ancient Tongues
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Much of the world's oldest magicks were in different languages.Celtic,Atlantian,Druidic,Setish,Germanic,
Toltec,etc.Language is an important part of magic.Do you think english can properly complete with these ancient tongues when invoking spells or performing sorceries?
L O N E W O L F
Lonewolf,
The power of these ancient languages lies in the fact that they are not used. The prolific use of the english language renders its words useless. At any point in time while you are speaking there is at least one other person in the world saying the same exact word at the same time. How can your words have any power in these circumstances? They can't that's how. Older languages, such as Sanskrit (which is only really used for prayer and magic) have power, because the words are not used as much, or as widely known and understood. I hope this makes some sence to you.
p.s. I have been told that I speak dead languages in my sleep, although this phenomena has not yet allowed itself to be recorded.

[Nagual LoneWolf]

Interesting point Count.I agree and see your point.It is mine also.The english language is why most spells cannot work.Voice and language are so important when intending ancient sorceries.
How do you know that you speak dead language in your sleep?Does a scholar of such be your nighttime companion?L O N E W O L F

[Athena]

I'd say it really is not in the language but depends on who is speaking, when, where and why. I guess though, that a rare language might "get you in the mood for magic".

[Nagual LoneWolf]

Hello Athena
Do you not feel that the spoken word has power? Agreed that the person saying it(intending it) must also
be affecting the words.If I call you by your real name I'm sure it has more effect on you esspecially if I would put some magic into it.
They say in druidic magic that all things have a secret name and if you know that name you
have total power over it.Do you believe all things can be thus controlled Athena?
- -L O N E W O L F

[Athena]

Yes the spoken word has power. Yet, calling me by my given name would have very little effect (feel free to do so if you like) since I do not identify with it to any larger extent. I belive there are power words yes, but there are no determined words of power but individual such and thus the power is more depending on the person than on the words. And yes, all things can probably be controlled if you find the right word, the right word for you.

[Athena]

There is not always a need to make sense :-)
I do not think I have

[Guest]

question:
what is more important the name or the function of the owner ?
edit: nagual could you make something for the personal icon ?thanks
(There is no place to store it here,I can direct you to my personal index if you would like to copy
a link there.You'lld to email this request though.L.Wolf)

[Nagual LoneWolf]

To answer your question I would have to ask what is it you would want to do?
To work sorcery upon the person then the name would be quite handy.If that person has much power
then there will be a struggle and a price to pay for one or both.

[Guest]

You make perfect sense to me. Words have power, the power to create, for others, and for yourself. For what you create for others you create for yourself. What is it you want to create for youself?

[Guest]

The Word is the essential brick in the whole creation. It contains energy, power and Intent.
Energy to contain.
Power to use.
Intent to express.
Every creature is a word spoken by The Intent itself.
People as well.
Thus every man and woman needs ultimately to seek and finaly find his or her eternal name, because only through such accomplishment one can express his living as a creature fully aware of its being a part of eternal Intent.
So ...
Seek and you will find.

[Guest]

I've just found a celtic rune which is same with chinese hieroglyphe- E (Eihwaz). And the meaning is also same (balance between human, Earth and sky).

[Guest]

Nagual LoneWolf wrote:To answer your question I would have to ask what is it you would want to do?
To work sorcery upon the person then the name would be quite handy.If that person has much power
then there will be a struggle and a price to pay for one or both.Hi, Nagual Lone Wolf, what you mean here, please, to work sorcery on the person.

[Nagual LoneWolf]

Work sorcery on a person is much like making a spell using intent to affect another being in a particular way. It maybe be for good reasons or bad ones but that there is always a price to pay when used for one's own gain or power. As one who could using intent form a spell using words or actual artifacts or even just my eyes, I could effect people, objects even the future. Once I realized I could and was doing it I learned to control and keep it under check early in my childhood. A sorcerer who knows how do access their own power using such sorcery can do much in the ways of black sorcery for to tell you the truth its easier here on this earth then learning to use it only for self. A sorcerer who knows the ways can with one finger drop you dead at his feet without touching you or even looking at you. Or causing events that lead to this or that. Power always wants to go black when the person using it has not come to terms with their foreign installation and has much self-importance. Thus why naguals teach to lose self importance and to control their thoughts and power.

[Guest]

Nagual LoneWolf wrote:Work sorcery on a person is much like making a spell using intent to affect another being in a particular way. It maybe be for good reasons or bad ones but that there is always a price to pay when used for one's own gain or power. As one who could using intent form a spell using words or actual artifacts or even just my eyes, I could effect people, objects even the future. Once I realized I could and was doing it I learned to control and keep it under check early in my childhood. A sorcerer who knows how do access their own power using such sorcery can do much in the ways of black sorcery for to tell you the truth its easier here on this earth then learning to use it only for self. A sorcerer who knows the ways can with one finger drop you dead at his feet without touching you or even looking at you. Or causing events that lead to this or that. Power always wants to go black when the person using it has not come to terms with their foreign installation and has much self-importance. Thus why naguals teach to lose self importance and to control their thoughts and power.Yikes!

[Nagual LoneWolf]

Sorcery is like something that grows on its own, it evolves and changes you and when you call upon it then are using it and letting it use you. What you are defines what type of sorcery you will make.

[serendipity]

Hi, NLW,

Have you considered the possibility that, it may be the cadence of speech which can directly affect awareness, and therefore, can be used to "perform magic", rather than, any actual words used, or thier meanings?

[Nagual LoneWolf]

Oh yes, words/will form intent, voice is intent's spear for sure. I learned that a long time ago too the hard way.

[Castor]

There is a language that performs magic for sure, at least in my case Sanskrit. When I chant mantras in Sanskrit, I fall into a deep meditation, and meditation is nothing else but magic. Mantras are magical words, vehicle to drive you so deeply into your self... So, yes, I believe that certain words from Ancient languages do perform magic. Mantras were discovered (or were given to) by warriors (old yogis) in the highest states of consciousness.
Can modern languages perform magic? Can words in generally perform magic? I believe it is all the matter of what you speak about and from what state of consciousness are you speaking; if you spread spiritual knowledge and you are so deeply soaked in it while speaking, you perform magic by speaking of it, and your words are magical ones, because you your self are just manifesting trough the words the state of your being that is pure power and knowledge... But, if you speak and speak of the same knowledge, and you are unconscious, distracted, nervous, low in power, there is no magic or power behind your words and in your words.
Power that drives the words is more important than the words them selves I guess. The state of the being of the speaker is more important than the spoken.. That is why Carlitos and don Juan used to spend much time walking in the silence... The state of don Juans being was sufficient enough, no words were required then. But, when don Juan spoke, he spoke from the elevated state of being, so his words were powerful and magical...
Best,
Castor

[Castor]

I also agree that cadence of the words can affect awareness... Words affects us for sure. We can get to be the victim of the words, or we can be elevated by them. To see the intention behind the words that affect us is important. Then we can decide whether to let them in or to let them go...

[watergaze]

There is one thing that no one has mentioned so far.. that is landscape. the country, the land.. the languages are connected to the land and countryside, the place, nature there.

In this sense I am pointing to the fact that it is quite possible some words are powerful in some places and others in other places. This feels right to me. I often switch to local language without really intending the switch when I intend to speak to the place or for other specific purposes. In that sense these words have most living energy. (I remember once telling to the forest, I am sorry I do not know much French, I'd like to have shown respect to the place also by talking to it in the native language, connect better/faster with its heart/soul).

Which would be the opposite to what many are saying in this thread, that the dead languages have more power cause nobody speaks them. This is bull in the case when you wish to speak to the spirits of a place where this language is not of the roots (by which I am not saying one cannot use other languages or that the spirits do not understand the no-language language of the heart/soul). The fact is that sometimes power choses me to speak in a bit older form of a language than the modern, in some rare cases like when telling stories, but that is just a slight difference (I think this is also to get energy into these older forms and make the language as it is now more fluid), as I am not educated enough to speak the oldest forms of languages. But it is always in the right country that the right language comes, or my own mother tongue (or the other language that is deeply connected to me). I know Latin though and I do not remember an instance when this wanted to flow from me, at least at the time when this language was a bit closer, cause now years passed and I am forgetting it, since I am not using it.

The dead languages in this sense that I am speaking of are often just an attention catcher and something for the sorcerer to get into a fancier mood. Which is quite helpful, for if this makes him believe he can move the earth then this is what he needs to do. I am not talking about mantras here though (those I understand also in the sense of vibrations). But imagine going to speak to a snail in your garden and talking ancient Greek... hope you get my point . The sorcerer speaking (often even to him) in-understandable "gibberish" is invoking other beings, working with other stuff.

I like the meaning of abracadabra though. That one is magical in its old form meaning. Has great sense for sorcerers. But I do not find myself using the word itself even if I respect it and honor and keep in mind its meaning. This word however became native in most languages .



I much more prefer the language of the soul "gibberish," which is sacred for me. It is more sacred than any old language, especially since it is alive and flowing, full of energy at any given moment that one speaks it. Because it is always in the moment. Always alive.

Old languages are more like a can . They have canned energy, as opposed to fresh living energy that the language of the soul has.

Hehe this just came to me, but somehow makes sense. lol



Did not mean to offend anyone with this post, so hopefully I didn't. Everything has a function. The old languages have a function and it is even sacred. But I want to point to the fact that what is local has more power in the local setting. Not very long ago I have been pointed to the fact how this is with religion. How the religion of a place was always connected to the spirits of that place and to stories of that place etc (this part I of course knew, now comes the thing). Our big religions also started as local at some point. And then they were implanted on us. Their version of understanding had much more power and connectedness to reality at the place where it was organic. Implants are sometimes not organic and are therefore not the highest possibility for us.

It is like Odin is in the north, Perun is for the Slavic peoples. It is like imagining an African tribe calling to Perun, or calling some Teochlachtwatever in the Carpathian mountains, might just be absurd. not that one cannot get a connection from anywhere to these spirits. but some are just more in place (which ultimately means have more power in that place - am taking note of how the language actually works) than others.

Sometimes if things get disconnected from the place they lose some of their meaning and power. Sometimes implants do a lot of harm (Christianity comes to mind). It is not natural for those people what was natural for people elsewhere. Maybe they needed to have certain customs and had reason for having them, but in another setting these customs are just inhibiting or unnatural.



This what I am talking about is pointing also to the fact that in order to be with power one needs to be most connected to the present. We live in the now. Here and Now. You can keep your habits from a place you lived in 5 years ago, but they might be more a burden than helpful. What was good to do in central Africa is not that good to do in Norway. Same with spirits. One needs to be fluid and often the old languages that are used for sorcery (in formulas and specific incantations) create or go hand in hand with some form of rigidity. But I guess that would also go hand in hand with the fact that these old types of sorcerers are a bit more rigid, as one talks about it here on this forum mainly in connection to their self-importance and no ego shedding. They have a different mood and work with different things in different ways(here I am really thinking of old sorcerers/magicians, not those who were leaving earth in nagual parties, I do not know that much about them, but I understand from what CC said that they also go in these directions). I will gladly be corrected in what I say about sorcerers, I really do not have too much experience in this field. In this sense I am working with what I read in CC and what others share on sites such as these and with the little of my own experience in this field and with the people practicing this stuff.

[Guest]

Speaking in tongues hasn't really been touched on much around here. I think you weren't wrong when you said, 'In this sense I am pointing to the fact that it is quite possible some words are powerful in some places and others in other places.'



Each culture has their own history and identity, each putting attention and intent behind specific actions and use of language.



What I've wondered about is how this relates to dreaming. There are some people who've dreamt in different languages and even talked in their sleep of languages which can't be identified. What I've heard it compared to is glossolalia, more info for the extra curious can find it here: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Glossolalia . I'd like to mention that it's not always linked to religious aspects.



There is power and intent behind language and also the lack of language. Thanks for posting about it, it's nice seeing something different.

[watergaze]

Hi Kaomea,
what you call Glossolalia seems to be what I called "the language of the soul 'gibberish'" in my previous post . Checked out the wiki link, did not read it all but it sure seems like it.
Kaomea wrote:What I've wondered about is how this relates to dreaming. There are some people who've dreamt in different languages and even talked in their sleep of languages which can't be identified. What I've heard it compared to is glossolalia, more info for the extra curious can find it here
Well, looking at 'the language of the soul' and dreaming does give us more space to move into in the discussion. But I have to say I am not very clear on what should already be called dreaming and what not yet . For example are visions dreaming? I'd say yes, not such a deep form of it but yes, it is somewhere between the wake and dream. Or if one moves the AP to a different position while awake, for example to see luminosity, is that dreaming? A lot of people say yes, I do not know. And then this 3rd attention, a lot of people call this a state that just puts dreaming into waking life. So basically seeing things while doing normal life stuff. I am not sure what is what, so hard for me to limit my answer to dreaming (when I am not so sure what is all under that term)..

Anyway, might be that what results in 'the language of the soul' comes from a shift somewhere. It is not the ordinary AP position that we have in common life. Having said that I am moving to the night dreaming, so to speak .

First of all one has to clear away the fact that often when people talk in dreams we do not understand them well and they do not translate the words they have in their head into speech in a correct way. In the sense that they want to say one thing and say something else or something that is not a word. It is like a failed connection in the center that connects stuff to language in the usual way . But it is also the beautiful way of unexpected paths that get us out of the paths we always walk on. Still, one should keep in mind that this person might really be thinking in his own native language but speaking gibberish. In this sense, since the person is actually thinking normal, just failing to put it out in the normal way, I would not consider this 'the language of the spirit' - what I understand under that I will get to in a bit and also I am not saying that speaking from dreaming cannot be 'the language of the spirit,' just that it often is not.
A theory: It could be that this person is by chance on a position of another language, I mean the odds of that happening might seem pretty slim, but who knows.. and thus the person is talking a language that he or she does not really know... But if it could happen in this way then it must be something very powerful, because even if I am at a place of a language I do not know just the whole language out of the blue. I might guess something here and there but that's pretty much it.

It seems that when we move into a certain direction with the AP it is harder to understand language. And from that position it is harder to express thoughts into the usually understood language as well. Did it ever happen to you that when somebody woke you up and was telling you something you just heard sound and not words? Did happen to me . Here I was just not on the common AP yet. Also I heard a person who was woken up like this speak gibberish .
However, it also happened to me quite unexpectedly at a lecture. I was sitting in the class waiting for the lecture to start. Then the teacher started talking and I just did not understand a word he was saying. Then I realized it is because he is talking in another language than what I expected, so I made a shift and I understood him again.. Happened to me once with TV too, but that was in my home country and my native language. Switched it on and gibberish, so I switch and no gibberish . So language is totally a thing of the AP. This is why it is a fact that language is a way to look at the world. In my country we have a saying: "How many languages you know, that many times you are a person." I find this quite fitting and insightful . The saying has more than one level to it. And on the energetic level it is a total fact . By learning a language we are learning a different AP and when speaking other languages not only do we perceive the world a bit differently we ourselves are different. So for sorcerers that would be translated into: "from that many AP positions you can experience the world" .
And to put in the dreaming aspect into this: when we hold the position of the AP in usual position of a culture, we are actually dreaming a dream of that culture's world/reality. As you can see, I can put dreaming even into what is clearly an explanation of stalking of the so called ordinary reality .

Just a few nights ago I woke up with two gibberish words but I knew they were important and that I must have understood them to know that. But I just could not understand them in that form, I think it was the failed translation from one AP to the other - like me repeating an incoherent sound from the TV while having lost that AP where I understood it. To take this meaning with me I need to relocate it/translate it to the AP I am moving to. Imagine what a job a good interpreter has . I read that the way their brains function is not dissimilar to schizophrenics. They have fewer working hours and retire early, a lot of them also drink a lot to relieve stress or who knows what . A good interpreter must be impeccably fluid between a few fixed APs. Jumping here and there in less than a blink of an eye.

Stalking myself when I am unable to understand a language that I actually understand tells me that I was holding a certain position and that I did not shift my AP automatically, was somewhat more fixed on that AP. Had to intend to understand to move it elsewhere. I am finding translating to be more difficult than before. It is interesting to see.. because I have put focus in my life on becoming more grounded - because I was not so good at getting myself fully into a fixed spot. Thus I see I am improving . I will then have to focus on gaining more fluidity . But first I need to know how to ground myself where I want to, or wherever if I want to. Learning stuff does sometimes get in the way of normal life. Of course it is also very much about practice. practice makes master .

To get back to 'the language of the soul'..
Kao wrote:There is power and intent behind language and also the lack of language.
I also think it is about intent and power. This is how it ties to the spirit. Language is a powerful carrier of intent. So here it depends on the medium that the speaker chooses. For some things 'the language of the soul' is truly best. It is able to endow the speech with the speaker's/spirit's intent in a strong, powerful way. If we take it that the center of feelings is more active during 'the language of the soul' (as they write in the wiki article) then we see that it can even be explained in a scientific fashion. For me feelings help me carry myself to the dreams that I have left already, and can therefore also take me elsewhere (just need to find the best plane to ride on - what I call keys or (foot)prints). My silent feeling carries my intent and gets me where I wish. When the person is speaking 'the language of the soul' he or she is not thinking of how they will say what they want to express. They just feel and want to express and it expresses itself naturally. So here I feel the intent is in its purer form, but does not mean it is always best to work with.

The 'language of the soul' flows directly. Connects to the inner and flows out in language in the purest possible way. It is a very cleansing experience to do this. The intent to communicate emotions is coming out in its purest form and that is why it is called 'the language of the soul'. It is the best way for our soul to express itself, its feelings. And also our souls when they listen they understand it even if we do not, because they get these feelings that carry the intent.. And they can understand that. If we have a good connection to our soul then we can understand it too.

I am quite sure that this 'language' is among the most ancient tongues/forms of speech that exist.

Coming back to dreaming, once when I was ill and had a very hard time controlling my states of awareness and was uncontrollably delirious I started speaking Latin from my dream state and as I was waking up from it I heard myself speaking Latin and I wondered at it, because i had only started the course and knew virtually nothing as of yet. I have no idea if what I said was correct or not . I had no idea what I was saying even. Would have wanted to know if I did make any sense, but will never find out. If I go from feeling then I have never spoken it better . I remembered this when you mentioned dreaming, so I have to correct myself on what I said before about Latin never wanting to flow through me. Guess it did at that point. But it doesn't seem to have had a practical, or any other, reason, so I'd still disregard it somewhat . It would make a funny generalization: Want to speak to the spirit of the forest? Speak in its local tongue. Want to speak from a delirium? Speak Latin..
The most local tongue of the forest is actually the sounds in it, animals, birds, trees. That is the language of the forest. Or maybe those are the languages of the forest.

And it occurred to me now that maybe why gods have many names is because there are different names for different APs, different landscapes. So it is that this god is perceived slightly differently and therefore a different name of his might emphasize a slightly different aspect/feeling to him. It is similar with some general words. A translation of the same word into another language word does not always mean that those two words have the same boundaries.

Well, since I have written this we have touched upon similar subjects in the 'exegesis' thread with Bob May. But I still wanted to say something before posting my reply here. But I have ended up saying it in the other thread .
I think it is possible to have an AP where one looks at a world that is unintelligible, observe people talking gibberish and not try to move there where one understands them. One can just let the language flow in sound around them. Do not catch it with the intellect or whatever it is that puts words into meaning. Something similar, though different can be done with the sight, just de-focus, stop translating visual stuff into objects and things. I would call this not doing. And not doing is supposed to lead to the stopping of the world .
Bob May wrote:All I am saying is that from my experience, the meaning of language falling away seems to be a signal of sorts that a person is crossing a specific barrier or veil. The confusion of language at the tower of Babel was a significant place in human consciousness. As was the understanding of other tongues at Pentecost.
So I will just summarize that each language is a position of the AP and the 'language of the soul' would be an AP position as well, as would the 'stopping of the understanding of language'. But those I would say are shifts to a position that is further from the usual. Therefore it is more likely to happen in connection to dreaming / in dreaming. If one wishes to connect to the local landscape might be a good idea to use the local language as languages are connected to the local country/landscape. If one wishes to connect to a mood of some older sorceric practices then it makes sense to use the language that they were using, because it helps connect to that AP position. If one wishes to speak from the here and now most purely then one talks in 'the language of the soul', because it truly is in the moment. It has no history/past that would give it meaning (in an intellectual sense). It is riding the most fresh and flowing energy. It is very liberating.

Well, I have not focused just on Glossolalia and dreaming, but this post helped me express what I think and know and suppose concerning related subjects in a somewhat orderly (and lengthy) fashion .

[Bob May]