The Rule

[lex icon]

Lex,
The rule was the eagles's gift to warriors. The rule to me comes in two parts. The first part defines the eagle and what is its requirements. The second part of the rule concerns the nagual party of warriors. The second part I have more problem with as it sets powerful restrictions and requirements on the formation of the group. I truly endorse the first part and test the second part. Why? Because I have too being that assembling the party required by the eagle can be a daunting and near impossible at least for me. It is my belief the forming of the nagual party is more of a addition of the toltec ritual system and added by men more than handed now down by the eagle to men. What is your opinion on this I would certainly like to know? LW

Personally I think most of us are interlopers. We are trying to inject ourselves into a tradition that is probably not aware of us personally. Somehow we have taken Castaneda’s works, his books, as personal invitations, into the world of Don Juan. It does not seem to matter much that CC underwent an arduous 14 year apprenticeship BEFORE DJ considered him even a warrior. But that does not seem to give us pause and after all we have read much stuff about the path with heart and the warriors way, so we think nothing of plugging right in where ever want to and considering ourselves warriors. We reject teachers and proudly proclaim how we don’t need them as we try to establish our own independence in the world of sorcery. We think that quoting Castaneda proves our prowess as warriors that we are making progress in the arts of sorcery. And  since most of us are in the same boat we do not want to disagree with each other too strongly or rock that precious little boat.
When LM of PP started to publicly assemble his warriors party and even use the designations outlined by The Rule presented in Eagle’s gift, I questioned him regarding that Rule and what he thought of it. He avoiding any and all conversation on the subject. At the time I thought he did not want to be publicly committed to an outward adherence to that Rule and the “restrictions/requirements” imposed by that Rule, yet wanted to take advantage of the structure and direction of that Rule.
It is my belief the forming of the nagual party is more of a addition of the toltec ritual system and added by men more than handed now down by the eagle to men. LW
Well LW that would be a simple way of avoiding those “restrictive requirements” you mentioned.
The second part I have more problem with as it sets powerful restrictions and requirements on the formation of the group. I truly endorse the first part and test the second part. Why? Because I have too being that assembling the party required by the eagle can be a daunting and near impossible at least for me. LW
LW I am sure it was just as daunting and near impossible for DJ and those that preceded him but they did not try and take refuge in the idea that forming such a party was an additional requirement of men. You are not being clear here because you also said that forming a party was a requirement of the Eagle.
Because I have too being that assembling the party required by the eagle can be a daunting and near impossible at least for me. LW
Now I can appreciate the dilemma. If I was a nagual I know for a fact that my life is not in a position, in that it is not available, to even attempt such a thing. But I do see how it could happen. I do see what I would need to do to get the ball rolling. I do see how to establish a group in this regard. And the rest would be up to the “EAGLE”.
If one, a nagual,  is able to completely put themselves at the disposition of the Eagle (hate that term eagle) and be thoroughly convinced of the Rule, (which as you said you are not yet totally convinced LW) then the requirements would not seem so stringent. In fact the Rule would indeed appear as a “gift” the very means to satisfy the Eagle in this regard. With trust in the Eagle and the means (Rule) to step forward a nagual could launch himself herself into the endeavor without regard for success or failure. If a nagual were to act impeccably in this regard then weight of success or failure rest solely with the Eagle. LW in regards to you not being entirely convinced of the Rule, I have to ask, did another nagual introduce the Rule to you or did you just read of it in Eagle’s Gift? From what we read in Power Of Silence it is quite a feat for one nagual to convince a newly recruited nagual of the efficacy of the Rule. If you have not under gone such an indoctrination then it is understandable your hesitancy regarding the Rule. I mean how would you be able to convince party members yourself of the Rule if you vacillate concerning it yourself?
Now in regard to personal power. A nagual needs to be able to “see” the energy configurations of potential party members that are being presented by the Eagle for induction. From what we have read, Castaneda tells us almost everyone does not want to join and the “trickery of the spirit” needs to be employed after the “Knock of the spirit”, which makes for some of the most entertaining stories. Sometimes years can be devoted by the group to induct one person.  Personally I would imagine that the Rule would be most welcome to a nagual, an endeavor worthy of his power as a double being.
But back to the present and this rag tag bunch of would be apprentices assembling themselves in internet groups. We care not for Rules or teachers, just let someone try and correct us or tell us what to do? I imagine that if a nagual worth their salt were to step forth to such a group he/she would be greeted with....”Who the hell do you think you are?” So I am not sure at all that internet groups such as mentioned will yield anything resembling warrior parties we have read about from Castaneda. Hell Castaneda could not even get a party together.
I am sincerely interested in how you respond LW and what your thoughts on the subject are.

[Guest]

lex icon wrote:
Personally I think most of us are interlopers. We are trying to inject ourselves into a tradition that is probably not aware of us personally. Somehow we have taken Castaneda’s works, his books, as personal invitations, into the world of Don Juan. It does not seem to matter much that CC underwent an arduous 14 year apprenticeship BEFORE DJ considered him even a warrior. But that does not seem to give us pause and after all we have read much stuff about the path with heart and the warriors way, so we think nothing of plugging right in where ever want to and considering ourselves warriors. We reject teachers and proudly proclaim how we don’t need them as we try to establish our own independence in the world of sorcery. We think that quoting Castaneda proves our prowess as warriors that we are making progress in the arts of sorcery.

When people use the word 'we' as you do so often throughout this post, it is assumed they actually mean to say "I".  (see this link for more info on how to voice ourselves with intent  and awareness http://docs.google.com/vi...ALwu8KqqMewPig&pli=1
With this correction, your post would read :
"Personally I think I am an interloper I am trying to inject myself into a tradition that is probably not aware of me personally.
Somehow I have taken Castaneda’s works, his books, as personal
invitations, into the world of Don Juan. It does not seem to matter much
that CC underwent an arduous 14 year apprenticeship BEFORE DJ
considered him even a warrior. But that does not seem to give me pause
and after all I have read much stuff about the path with heart and the
warriors way, so I think nothing of plugging right in where ever I want
to and considering myself a warrior. I reject teachers and proudly
proclaim how I don’t need them as I try to establish my own
independence in the world of sorcery. I think that quoting Castaneda
proves my prowess as a warrior that I am making progress in the arts
of sorcery. "  etc, etc.
Now, I know that this is not really the subject of this thread or forum, but I am growing tired of people judging and putting down those of us that are on this path and follow CC and dJ!  Get used to it.  This forum is called The New Seers!
Personally, I am on this path because I was born into it.  I know this with every fiber of my being and even if I hadn't read any CC (though that sure makes it easier for me) I would have found the knowledge and help I needed anyway.  I can use what CC learned during his 14 yr apprenticeship and passed down to us to further myself on the Path.

[Nu Lang]

Hey En, good response.




I asked her how she expected me to address her. "Just Florinda will do," she said. "Insofar as to who I am, I can tell you right off that I am a woman warrior who knows the secrets of stalking. And insofar as that I am supposed to do for you, I can tell you that I am going to teach you the first seven principles of stalking, the first three principles of the rule for stalkers, and the first three maneuvers of stalking."



"The first principle of the art of stalking is that warriors choose their battleground," she said. "A warrior never goes into battle without knowing what the surroundings are”.



"To discard everything that is unnecessary is the second principle of the art of stalking”.



Florinda said that Celestino's anger had also permitted the curer to point out, not to her reason, but to her body, the first three precepts of the rule for stalkers. Although her mind was focused entirely on herself, since nothing else existed for her outside her physical pain and the anguish of losing her beauty, still her body had acknowledged what had happened, and needed later on only a reminder in order to put everything in place.



"Warriors don't have the world to cushion them, so they must have the rule," she went on. "Yet the rule of stalkers applies to everyone.



"Celestino's arrogance was his undoing and the beginning of my instruction and liberation. His self-importance, which was also mine, forced us both to believe that we were above practically everybody. The curer brought us down to what we really are - nothing.



"The first precept of the rule is that everything that surrounds us is an unfathomable mystery.



"The second precept of the rule is that we must try to unravel these mysteries, but without ever hoping to accomplish this.



"The third, that a warrior, aware of the unfathomable mystery that surrounds him and aware of his duty to try to unravel it, takes his rightful place among mysteries and regards himself as one.



Consequently, for a warrior there is no end to the mystery of being, whether being means being a pebble, or an ant, or oneself. That is a warrior's humbleness. One is equal to everything."



"Don't complicate things," she said in a tone of command. "Aim at being simple. Apply all the concentration you have to decide whether or not to enter into battle, for any battle is a battle for one's life.



This is the third principle of the art of stalking; A warrior must be willing and ready to make his last stand here and now. But not in a helter-skelter way."



Without knowing I had used the third principle of the art of stalking. I had put my life, or what was left of it, on the line. I was willing and ready to die. It wasn't such a great decision for me, I was dying anyway. It is a fact that when one is half dead, as in my case, not with great pain but with great discomfort, the tendency is to get so lazy and weak that no effort is possible.



"Good," Florinda said. "I see that you're applying the fourth principle of the art of stalking. Relax, abandon yourself, fear nothing. Only then will the powers that guide us open the road and aid us. Only then."



"You've correctly applied the fifth principle of the art of stalking" she said. "Don't let yourself wander away."



"What is the fifth principle?" I asked.



"When faced with odds that cannot be dealt with, warriors retreat for a moment," she said. "They let their minds meander. They occupy their time with something else. Anything would do.



"You've done just that. But now that you've accomplished it, you must apply the sixth principle: Warriors compress time; even an instant counts. In a battle for your life, a second is an eternity; an eternity that may decide the outcome. Warriors aim at succeeding, therefore they compress time. Warriors don't waste an instant."
http://sorcery.yuku.com/topic/2573/Stal ... -Castaneda

[Nu Lang]

Florinda was most impressed by the last principle. To her it summarized everything she wanted to tell me in her last-minute instructions.



"My benefactor was the chief," Florinda said. "And yet, looking at him, no one would've ever believed it. He always had one of his female warriors as a front, while he freely mingled with the patients, pretending to be one of them, or he posed as an old fool who was constantly sweeping dry leaves with a handmade broom."



Florinda explained that in order to apply the seventh principle of the art of stalking, one has to apply the other six. Thus her benefactor was always looking on from behind the scenes. Thanks to that he was capable of avoiding or parrying conflicts. If there was strife, it was never directed toward him, but towards his front, the female warrior.



"I hope that you have realized by now," she went on, "that only a master stalker can be a master of controlled folly. Controlled folly doesn't mean to con people. It means, as my benefactor explained it, that warriors apply the seven basic principles of the art of stalking to whatever they do, from the most trivial acts to life and death situations.



"Applying these principles brings about three results. The first is that stalkers learn never to take themselves seriously; they learn to laugh at themselves. If they're not afraid of being a fool, they can fool anyone. The second is that stalkers learn to have endless patience. Stalkers are never in a hurry; they never fret. And the third is that stalkers learn to have an endless capacity to improvise."



She explained that stalkers are inherently different than dreamers in the way they use the world around them, and that what dona Soledad was doing was trying to help me to turn my head.



When don Juan had described the concept of turning a warrior's head to face a new direction, I had understood it as a metaphor that depicted a change in attitude. Florinda said that that description was true, but it was no metaphor. It was true that stalkers turn their heads; however, they do not turn them to face a new direction, but to face time in a different way.



Stalkers face the oncoming time. Normally we face time as it recedes from us. Only stalkers can change that and face time as it advances on them.



He said that the most effective strategy was worked out by the seers of the Conquest, the unquestionable masters of stalking. It consists of six elements that interplay with one another.



Five of them are called the attributes of warriorship: control, discipline, forbearance, timing, and will. They pertain to the world of the warrior who is fighting to lose self-importance. The sixth element, which is perhaps the most important of all, pertains to the outside world and is called the petty tyrant.



Don Juan stopped talking and stared at me fixedly. There was an awkward silence; then he started to talk about stalking. He said that it had very humble and fortuitous origins. It started from an observation the new seers made that when warriors steadily behave in ways not customary for them, the unused emanations inside their cocoons begin to glow. And their assemblage points shift in a mild, harmonious, barely noticeable fashion.



Stimulated by this observation, the new seers began to practice the systematic control of their behavior. They called this practice the art of stalking. Don Juan remarked that the name, although objectionable, was appropriate, because stalking entailed a specific kind of behavior with people, behavior that could be categorized as surreptitious.



The new seers, armed with this technique, tackled the known in a sober and fruitful way.



By continual practice, they made their assemblage points move steadily.



"Stalking is one of the two greatest accomplishments of the new seers." he said. "The new seers decided that it should be taught to a modern-day nagual when his assemblage point has moved quite deep into the left side. The reason for this decision is that a nagual must learn the principles of stalking without the encumbrance of the human inventory. After all, the nagual is the leader of a group, and to lead them he has to act quickly without first having to think about it.



"Other warriors can learn stalking in their normal awareness, although it is advisable that they do it in heightened awareness - not so much because of the value of heightened awareness, but because it imbues stalking with a mystery that it doesn't really have; stalking is merely behavior with people."



He said that I could now understand that shifting the assemblage point was the reason why the new seers placed such a high value on the interaction with petty tyrants. Petty tyrants forced seers to use the principles of stalking and, in doing so, helped seers to move their assemblage points.



I asked him if the old seers knew anything at all about the principles of stalking.



"Stalking belongs exclusively to the new seers," he said, smiling. "They are the only seers who had to deal with people. The old ones were so wrapped up in their sense of power that they didn't even know that people existed, until people started clobbering them on the head. But you already know all this."



He said that as time passed and the new seers established their practices, they realized that under the prevailing conditions of life, stalking only moved the assemblage points minimally. For maximum effect, stalking needed an ideal setting; it needed petty tyrants in positions of great authority and power. It became increasingly difficult for the new seers to place themselves in such situations; the task of improvising them or seeking them out became an unbearable burden.



He explained that stalking practices are not something one can rejoice in; in fact, they are downright objectionable. Knowing this, the new seers realize that it would be against everybody's interest to discuss or practice the principles of stalking in normal awareness.



I pointed out to him an incongruity. He had said that there is no way for warriors to act in the world while they are in heightened awareness, and he had also said that stalking is simply behaving with people in specific ways. The two statements contradicted each other.



"By not teaching it in normal awareness I was referring only to teaching it to a nagual," he said. "The purpose of stalking is twofold: first, to move the assemblage point as steadily and safely as possible, and nothing can do the job as well as stalking: second, to imprint its principles at such a deep level that the human inventory is bypassed, as is the natural reaction of refusing and judging something that may be offensive to reason."

[Nu Lang]

The art of stalking is the riddle of the heart; the puzzlement sorcerers feel upon becoming aware of two things: first that the world appears to us to be unalterably objective and factual, because of peculiarities of our awareness and perception; second, that if different peculiarities of perception come into play, the very things about the world that seem so unalterably objective and factual change.

[Nu Lang]

"We are going to talk now about the third abstract core," don Juan said. "It is called the trickery of the spirit, or the trickery of the abstract, or stalking oneself, or dusting the link."



"The art of stalking is learning all the quirks of your disguise," Belisario said, paying no attention to what don Juan was telling him. "And it is to learn them so well no one will know you are disguised. For that you need to be ruthless, cunning, patient, and sweet."



He made don Juan practice his womanly behavior skills in every town they passed through.



And don Juan honestly believed he was teaching him to be an actor. But Belisario insisted that he was teaching him the art of stalking. He told don Juan that stalking was an art applicable to everything, and that there were four steps to learning it: ruthlessness, cunning, patience, and sweetness.



I felt compelled to interrupt his account once more.



"But isn't stalking taught in deep, heightened awareness?" I asked.



"Of course," he replied with a grin. "But you have to understand that for some men wearing women's clothes is the door into heightened awareness. In fact, such means are more effective than pushing the assemblage point, but are very difficult to arrange."

[Nu Lang]

She explained that stalkers are inherently different than dreamers in the way they use the world around them, and that what dona Soledad was doing was trying to help me to turn my head.

[Nu Lang]

Being a stalker myself, I relate to this stuff. And reading your lead post Lex, it has stalking written all over it.



I have discovered there are bascially two types of stalking (and possibly a hybird) my opinion only, but here goes...



The first is normal worldy stalking, what basically everyone does...using words and behavior to try and control others thoughts and actions. Very common and very easy to spot too.



The second is being a master stalker. Its not done in conventional way and employs sorcery. I don't knwo too much about it yet, just knwo what I knwo which is more than I used to know about it.



The hybrid is when one (a warrior) is sort of employing a bit of precognition (seeing) into their stalking, and sees the value in stealth (silent stalking) and the art of controlled folly.

[Guest]

Nu Lang wrote:She explained that stalkers are inherently different than dreamers in the way they use the world around them, and that what dona Soledad was doing was trying to help me to turn my head.

[Nu Lang]

Don Juan wrote:"But you have to understand that for some men wearing women's clothes is the door into heightened awareness."

[Guest]

Nu Lang wrote:Being a stalker myself, I relate to this stuff. And reading your lead post Lex, it has stalking written all over it.



I have discovered there are bascially two types of stalking (and possibly a hybird) my opinion only, but here goes...



The first is normal worldy stalking, what basically everyone does...using words and behavior to try and control others thoughts and actions. Very common and very easy to spot too.



The second is being a master stalker. Its not done in conventional way and employs sorcery. I don't knwo too much about it yet, just knwo what I knwo which is more than I used to know about it.



The hybrid is when one (a warrior) is sort of employing a bit of precognition (seeing) into their stalking, and sees the value in stealth (silent stalking) and the art of controlled folly.Excellent.   Been thinking about this thread all night.

[ninth octave]

lex icon wrote:

Lex,
The rule was the eagles's gift to warriors. The rule to me comes in two parts. The first part defines the eagle and what is its
requirements. The second part of the rule concerns the nagual party of warriors. The second part I have more problem with as it sets powerful restrictions and requirements on the formation of the group. I truly endorse the first part and test the second part. Why? Because I have too being that assembling the party required by the eagle can be a daunting and near impossible at least for me. It is my belief the forming of the nagual party is more of a addition of the toltec ritual system and added by men more than handed now down by the eagle to men. What is your opinion on this I would certainly like to know? LW

Personally I think most of us are interlopers. We are trying to inject ourselves into a tradition that is probably not aware of us personally. Somehow we have taken Castaneda’s works, his books, as personal invitations, into the world of Don Juan. It does not seem to matter much that CC underwent an arduous 14 year apprenticeship BEFORE DJ considered him even a warrior. But that does not seem to give us pause and after all we have read much stuff about the path with heart and the warriors way, so we think nothing of plugging right in where ever want to and considering ourselves warriors. We reject teachers and proudly proclaim how we don’t need them as we try to establish our own independence in the world of sorcery. We think that quoting Castaneda proves our prowess as warriors that we are making progress in the arts of sorcery. And  since most of us are in the same boat we do not want to disagree with each other too strongly or rock that precious little boat.
When LM of PP started to publicly assemble his warriors party and even use the designations outlined by The Rule presented in Eagle’s gift, I questioned him regarding that Rule and what he thought of it. He avoiding any and all conversation on the subject. At the time I thought he did not want to be publicly committed to an outward adherence to that Rule and the “restrictions/requirements” imposed by that Rule, yet wanted to take advantage of the structure and direction of that Rule.
It is my belief the forming of the nagual party is more of a addition of the toltec ritual system and added by men more than handed now down by the eagle to men. LW
Well LW that would be a simple way of avoiding those “restrictive requirements” you mentioned.
The second part I have more problem with as it sets powerful restrictions and requirements on the formation of the group. I truly endorse the first part and test the second part. Why? Because I have too being that assembling the party required by the eagle can be a daunting and near impossible at least for me. LW
LW I am sure it was just as daunting and near impossible for DJ and those that preceded him but they did not try and take refuge in the idea that forming such a party was an additional requirement of men. You are not being clear here because you also said that forming a party was a requirement of the Eagle.
Because I have too being that assembling the party required by the eagle can be a daunting and near impossible at least for me. LW
Now I can appreciate the dilemma. If I was a nagual I know for a fact that my life is not in a position, in that it is not available, to even attempt such a thing. But I do see how it could happen. I do see what I would need to do to get the ball rolling. I do see how to establish a group in this regard. And the rest would be up to the “EAGLE”.
If one, a nagual,  is able to completely put themselves at the disposition of the Eagle (hate that term eagle) and be thoroughly convinced of the Rule, (which as you said you are not yet totally convinced LW) then the requirements would not seem so stringent. In fact the Rule would indeed appear as a “gift” the very means to satisfy the Eagle in this regard. With trust in the Eagle and the means (Rule) to step forward a nagual could launch himself herself into the endeavor without regard for success or failure. If a nagual were to act impeccably in this regard then weight of success or failure rest solely with the Eagle. LW in regards to you not being entirely convinced of the Rule, I have to ask, did another nagual introduce the Rule to you or did you just read of it in Eagle’s Gift? From what we read in Power Of Silence it is quite a feat for one nagual to convince a newly recruited nagual of the efficacy of the Rule. If you have not under gone such an indoctrination then it is understandable your hesitancy regarding the Rule. I mean how would you be able to convince party members yourself of the Rule if you vacillate concerning it yourself?
Now in regard to personal power. A nagual needs to be able to “see” the energy configurations of potential party members that are being presented by the Eagle for induction. From what we have read, Castaneda tells us almost everyone does not want to join and the “trickery of the spirit” needs to be employed after the “Knock of the spirit”, which makes for some of the most entertaining stories. Sometimes years can be devoted by the group to induct one person.  Personally I would imagine that the Rule would be most welcome to a nagual, an endeavor worthy of his power as a double being.
But back to the present and this rag tag bunch of would be apprentices assembling themselves in internet groups. We care not for Rules or teachers, just let someone try and correct us or tell us what to do? I imagine that if a nagual worth their salt were to step forth to such a group he/she would be greeted with....”Who the hell do you think you are?” So I am not sure at all that internet groups such as mentioned will yield anything resembling warrior parties we have read about from Castaneda. Hell Castaneda could not even get a party together.
I am sincerely interested in how you respond LW and what your thoughts on the subject are.

LEX:
"BUT I DO SEE HOW IT COULD HAPPEN. I DO SEE WHAT I WOULD NEED TO DO TO GET THE BALL ROLLING. I DO SEE HOW TO ESTABLISH A GROUP IN THIS REGARD."
I am sincerely interested in how you respond Lex.
 FYI Lex is a very good hybrid stalker.

[Guest]

lex icon wrote:

"BUT I DO SEE HOW IT COULD HAPPEN. I DO SEE WHAT I WOULD NEED TO DO TO GET THE BALL ROLLING. I DO SEE HOW TO ESTABLISH A GROUP IN THIS REGARD."
     The quoting system is a little hard to follow for me sometimes at yuku, so I apologize in advance if I got the wrong poster of this quote.
Lex, are you saying you would like to start a new group of warriors, that the groups established so far are not somehow 'real warriors'?

[Guest]

"You must be fully afraid, but you must not stop.  That is the rule."

[lex icon]

Lex, are you saying you would like to start a new group of warriors,
that the groups established so far are not somehow 'real warriors'? Enchantra
First, I thought you were ignoring me??? Just kidding. I know I am like crack  hard to put down once you get a taste. Isn't strange I am so rude and objectionable and yet, and yet lol.
I am merely trying to point out what DJ thought in these regards. I consider myself one of the interlopers to this tradition. I have not been invited by those who practice it and have been inducted just like in the stories. I also learn Buddhism but I do not go around calling myself a Buddhist just because I like what they are into and are saying. I have a great deal of respect for DJ and the tradition he has introduced the world to through Castaneda. But that hardly qualifies me to assess myself as part of this tradition. I mean look at Florinda and Taisha I have met these these people, they are very different and totally committed. They have completely left their lives behind to venture in a life outlined by DJ and those teachings. I am not in their league. They were "pressganged" and tricked into this whole thing and were just in too deep before they could really mount an effective escape. You must remember, and DJ was quite emphatic about this, there simply are no volunteers. Many would like to volunteer but the "Eagle" seems to pass us by and does not mark us for induction. I don't have a problem with this. When I see others weaseling around these kinds "requirements" and avenues of the Eagle I just have to scratch my head at the desperation to be include. Does that mean we are not allowed to learn from Castaneda and his words? No we can all learn from him. I just see the difference between the members of these parties we have read about and those who just wish to absorb as much as they can in this area.
Now I know you are trying to bait me with your initial question but that's ok. I could hardly wish to start a group of warriors according to the Rule, I do not even consider myself a part of this tradition just a minor beneficiary. But that does not mean I do not see in this regard. Second I am not a nagual and from what I have read it takes naguals and not just any old nagual but naguals that not only have 4 compartments of energy but also have received the 4 corresponding blazes of the Eagle. And everyone has to be convinced of the Rule! Now that is at the core of this tradition presented to Castaneda by DJ. No use crying that its unfair that's just the way it is.
Now if something has changed in this regard, then perhaps we could discuss it and find out why the Eagle has changed in respect to the Rule. And if that is indeed what has happened then those who are privvy to such information need to do a better job of getting it out to the rest of us while respecting the previous position of the Eagle and the Rule.
As for the question of new seers. This is not the only tradition that has new seers. They are common in all wisdom traditions. The new seers of this tradition seem to be highly specialized in how they practice.

that the groups established so far are not somehow 'real warriors'? Enchantra
Well that depends on who you are referring to as"groups established so far". But I, like DJ, differentiate between apprentices and warriors. It appears you don't. Now there is a reason I differentiate in this way. It is because I underwent and arduous "apprenticeship" (16 years) of another tradition. During this period my tonal was completely rearranged. All the familiar first attention stuff rearranged neatly in one half while the other half was swept clean. Reason was was completely untangled from all the **** it was attached to while the cleaned empty side was a highly focused will that was able to approach the nagual and recognize it as such, without all the crapping out. Now this might be news to some but these sort of things go on intentionally outside of this sorcery tradition. I could relate all of this period of my life in other terms not just sorcery terms. But whether you believe it or not I see clearly from both silent knowledge and reason and I am aware that I do so. By bubble of perception was cracked open by another method.
Part of the reason I have such insight into the teachings of DJ is because of corresponding energetic movements on my part. I am not merely learning DJ teachings, I am amazed that they reflect so many aspects of my own journey. Just the verbiage was unfamiliar for so long.
"I agree with you in that, from an everyday point of view, concepts of sorcery are completely senseless. But there is a deep dimension to our awareness, where the complaints of the mind don't penetrate, and a warrior won't rest until he finds it. Once there he discovers that his own reason, when it is exercised with inflexible rigor and in its entirety, will automatically lead to sorcery, because the essence of reason is sobriety, indifference and non-pity.
Once he is the owner of his reason and no longer manipulated by it, a sorcerer can attempt the feat of speech, putting into words the unfathomable enigma of existence. But that is such a difficult art that you can only approach it by means of a great energy surplus."
Castaneda "Encounter with the Nagual" Armando Torres.

[Nu Lang]

ninth octave wrote: FYI Lex is a very good hybrid stalker.


     
You too.

[Nu Lang]

Now if something has changed in this regard, then perhaps we could discuss it and find out why the Eagle has changed in respect to the Rule. And if that is indeed what has happened then those who are privvy to such information need to do a better job of getting it out to the rest of us while respecting the previous position of the Eagle and the Rule. - Lex
And under what criteria would you yourself believe such a person?

[lex icon]

And under what criteria would you yourself believe such a person? NL
I don't see that my believing would have anything to do with what I propose. My belief or anyone else's would not be required. I am saying we should discuss it as a group. If there are those who are saying the eagle has changed in regard to the Rule then I would like to know why they think this.
But if a forum such as this is branching off in a new direction, nothing wrong with that, then those who are leading the way are probably in touch with why and can articulate it.

[lex icon]

And under what criteria would you yourself believe such a person? NL
Remember I seemed to be the only one who did not have a problem when LW publicly announced that he had burned from within. That people seemed to have a double standard when considering LW and myself seems to go unnoticed or is just too inconvenient for some.
Now I can certainly accept such a thing about LW, but that is because I have a different interpretation of what it means. If people are just accepting the outward meaning portrayed by CC, like Epiquin, then you all have a problem with LW saying he burned from within and yet is still here. Yet I do not hear one word questioning LW in this regard. Why is that????
Personally I  sincerely look forward to LW responding to this and also to his response to the Rule we were discussing. I gave you my take on it so far. So how about it LW?

[lex icon]

FYI Lex is a very good hybrid stalker. Ninth
Yes I stalk but I wonder if anybody sees what it is my quarry. (Hint...it is not a person. I leave that to you guys.)

[Nu Lang]

lex icon wrote:And under what criteria would you yourself believe such a person? NL
I don't see that my believing would have anything to do with what I propose. My belief or anyone else's would not be required. I am saying we should discuss it as a group. If there are those who are saying the eagle has changed in regard to the Rule then I would like to know why they think this.
But if a forum such as this is branching off in a new direction, nothing wrong with that, then those who are leading the way are probably in touch with why and can articulate it.
Belief is everything. It determines what direction we will take.
You called all of us interlopers, outsiders to CCs lineage, so why would you even suggest one of us could change the Rule when you said we are not even in the lineage?
And in fact I realize you never suggested any of us could change the Rule, you merely asked to know why one who thinks the eagle has changed the rule to explain why they think that. But what I mean is, you are merely revealing your wish to change people's perspectives by establishing your own set of rules (interlopers vs insiders) and then asking for group adherence to your logic. So the real question is perhaps...why is it so important poeple follow you? You may not call yourself a nagual, but its clear you wish to influence others using persuasion, hence, lead them in a direction.
Upon reflection, I realize now you have always been this way. As long as I've known you.

[Nu Lang]

lex icon wrote:And under what criteria would you yourself believe such a person? NL
Remember I seemed to be the only one who did not have a problem when LW publicly announced that he had burned from within. That people seemed to have a double standard when considering LW and myself seems to go unnoticed or is just too inconvenient for some.
Now I can certainly accept such a thing about LW, but that is because I have a different interpretation of what it means. If people are just accepting the outward meaning portrayed by CC, like Epiquin, then you all have a problem with LW saying he burned from within and yet is still here. Yet I do not hear one word questioning LW in this regard. Why is that????
Personally I  sincerely look forward to LW responding to this and also to his response to the Rule we were discussing. I gave you my take on it so far. So how about it LW?

what??? I have no problem...I intend to do that very thing myself, ...

[Nu Lang]

lex icon wrote: 
FYI Lex is a very good hybrid stalker. Ninth
Yes I stalk but I wonder if anybody sees what it is my quarry. (Hint...it is not a person. I leave that to you guys.)
A hot wind?

[Turin Otzaki]

Lex, does it matter what people here believe about themselves? Whether its considering themselves to be a Nagual (there's more than one), or they say they have burned within...and there's another here saying they are a 'walk in' too.....I just consider it to be what people believe about themselves, end of story....and not true necessarily. To me, a Nagual is what DJM presented, Julian etc....and I would never get enough experioence of someone over a computer to agree that they are a Nagual....all I can get is that they consider themselves to be one, and they might indeed be, but I dont know and wont know via this medium so dismiss thinking about it. Im more focussed on the energy the person brings here, the nuggets they bring, their skills, and approach. Who cares if they call themselves this or that? as long as Im not required to agree, Im fine with it.

[Nu Lang]

Im more focussed on the energy the person brings here, the nuggets they bring, their skills, and approach. Who cares if they call themselves this or that? as long as Im not required to agree, Im fine with it. Yes, true Turin its the energy, skills and approach, not the name nagual.
I see you still will benefit from how you proceed, by not considering titles, but rather energy...so maybe you could say from your POV that some people embody an enormous amount of abstract energy and those people can be spotted. We could say they worked hard to get that way. We could also say they were born with the inclination to seek the abstract in a ruthless fashion. So by discarding the name 'nagual' we can still define what that experience of energy is when a person has an abundance of it.