Secrecy and silence

[Guest]

I mentioned being involved with an attempt to recreate prehistoric ecstatic shamanism. There used to be a small cult of people involved with this recreation attempt in the Santa Cruz mountains in California.
More than half of the participants were young people from UCSC, a nearby university who were recruited from lectures on wildcrafting and drumming circles that we were involved with.
The initiatory ordeal of this group involved spending months in the nearby park at a time. There was a lot of time for stories amd talk.
We said among ourselves that silence was our password, and that it was a signal of recognition between us. I know that could seem like a contradiction, but spending months outdoors in the woods allowed for plenty of time for both.
On one occaision, a young man undergoing his ordeal was told about this "password of recognition between us", and he commented that his Qabalistic order had a similar feeling about silence.
With a few hours of talk, we found similarities and differences in our understanding of silence and secrecy.
I thought it might be worthwhile to talk about silence as a single idea that resides both in the Qabalah that my new friend Bob May understands, and the shamanisim I have been with.
Here is my understanding in a nutshell.
..................................................
Consider for a moment, a man who goes to a psychiatric counselor for help with raging emotional upset within him.
The counselor's strategy is to get the man to talk about his problems. If the man can address his emotional upset, the psychic pressure of his upset will lessen.
Should he deny, or otherwise be able to suppress his emotions, the psychic pressure from those feelings will increase.
Consider also for a moment, the Christian injunction to do charitible work in secrecy. If a man speaks about his charity out in the open, the psychic pressure of this virtue will lessen. Should he suppress his charity, it will grow within him. A man will grow more charitable
There is a principle being illustrated here.
In all cultures where it has existed, the entire range of human activity we think of as "magic" has been held as secret. The techniques and practices of the witch grow within "the power of silence". Talking too much can "empty your bag" so to speak.
Many commenters on magic have indicated a real paranoia of what others might do or think if they knew the secrets of a magical organization.
I propose here, that the real benefit of secrecy is that magic will not exist in the open. That which is kept within us unexpressed grows.
That to which we give naming, shrinks away.
Bob, would you mind giving a comparison of that above to the teachings about silence in the initiatory grade of the Golden Dawn?
Why did the Golden Dawn choose to keep secrets?

[Guest]

Here's a very practical application of secrecy.

Get a coin to flip or a deck of cards to turn over one at a time. Your job is to predict each outcome, and to keep track of your successes and failures.
You won't do much better than chance trying to predict what possibility will be next. It could be heads, tails, spades, hearts, whatever.
Now spend a day telling everyone you can, that you have no psychic powers. Be adamant. Get feedback. Feedback is important. Deny and suppress it.
Make sure you keep your purpose out of your mind do not think about it, as you go about denying it.
At best, you could get into an adamant argument about the existence of psychic phenomena.
Now try the test again.
This principle predicts that psychic ability will increase if it is denied. You should do exceptionally better than chance on the retest. There are many factors that might influence how successful you are, but nearly everyone will be able to score above chance after spending some time denying what they can do.
Who here remembers the two people who did better than chance on the public ESP test on SR?
That's right. GD and Jeremy. The two biggest skeptics and naysayers turned out to be the most psychic of anyone who participated in the test.
Now there needs to be an exception, or I couldn't tell anyone such things. In a while I'll post about how the exceptions have to happen in order not to drain off the magic.

It involves a physical gesture much like that found in the Order of the Golden Dawn, or so I've been told.



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The sorcerer has a secret garden within him where he uses the secret of secrecy to grow treasures.
We all have secrets. They can work for us or against us, by amplyfying the the secret, generally, if we are unpracticed or unfamiliar with it, having the opposite effect of what we might desire.
Perhaps you've told everyone at your workplace that you're five years younger than you actually are. Your secret becomes "how old you are". That secret will speed your aging process. Fortunately you probably didn't have to adamantly insist on your lie, and the effect will be slight.
On the other hand, if you told everyone you were five years older than you actually were, your secret becomes "how young you are", and just like in the experiment above, your youngness increases.
Denial makes things larger.
The act of naming things makes things shrink. To know the name of something, to use it in an act of naming, is to diminish it.
This odd convolution is tricky to deal with at first, but it's not a difficult idea. The dynamic is all around us constantly. As the human mind goes through life naming everything, as we do, it all diminishes.
The "quiet mind" technique of stopping the internal dialogue that Carlos wrote about will diminish the naming of the world, giving one an amplified sense of being.


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Inversion

Secrecy is one example of the desires of people working against them.
It is said that should a man wish to understand himself, he has to forget about himself, and seek to understand the world around him.
That being said, should a man wish to understand the world around him, he must forget about the world around him, and look within himself for answers.
This too is an application of the secret of secrecy. This effect of inversion of your desire is can be responsible for a lot of confusion in life.
As one names the world around them, it is the self that diminishes. The convolutions never end. The power of silence, or secrecy, as it's sometimes been called, flips everything.
That's the secret of naming.

[Guest]

Maybe that series of posts was a bit ambitious. After so many views and after such spontaneous conversation with Sid and Bob, I'm concerned I may have over posted my welcome.
As significant as I think it is, I've been suprised to find these ideas to be real conversation stoppers on more than one forum.
Is it too dense for easy reading? Is it inapprpriate for a board that is specifically about nagualism?

[Guest]

you've got to be careful about innersilence. It's not natural for people to be in prolonged states of inner silence. It could be dangerous.

[Guest]

Secrecy can be for the safety of those who would apply certain teachings without proper supervision. The dangers of doing certain sorcery applications improperly are very dangerous!

[Guest]

In the conventional meaning of mental silence, I have found the experience to always be restful and restorative.
Rersearch that's available anywhere indicates that to spend some time in mental quietude every day results in tangible health benefits and reduced stress.
Practitioners of extended mental silence have quantifiable advantages in bodily functions, physical endurance, and the ability to focus and concentrate on complex tasks.
What sorts of dangers could there be in silencing one's thoughts? Could you offer a mechanism that might render such a practice dangerous?
I can understand secrecy having a dangerous edge. There are sayings like "you are only as sick as your secrets" and obsession naturally occurs with secrecy.
It's like trying not to think of alligators. You will likely be distracted with stray thoughts about alligators until you stop trying to supress thoughts about them.
I would be grateful to get an idea on how silence could be problematic. It's something that hasn't occurred to me.

[Bob May]

Hi Lightly and all,
"Consider for a moment, a man who goes to a psychiatric counselor for help with raging emotional upset within him.
The counselor's strategy is to get the man to talk about his problems. If the man can address his emotional upset, the psychic pressure of his upset will lessen.
Should he deny, or otherwise be able to suppress his emotions, the psychic pressure from those feelings will increase."
It could also be, not to say you are wrong, but another explaination is that the man is in the process of contacting or opening doors to other "influences" by his silence. Talking to himself or others will help to bring him back to normal everyday 5-sense awareness.
In this case either explaination can be true and even some of each can also be true.
Removing our definitions or boundaries of what reality is is accomplished by inner silence. Sometimes we go further than we are emotionally capable of enduring. The first impulse is to talk to bring ourselves back from a dangerous altered awareness. It is a tool. And the single most powerful tool used to help stop the world. This is according to Don Juan and I believe it to be true.
"There is a time to speak and a time to keep silent.." Ecclesiates.

"If a man speaks about his charity out in the open, the psychic pressure of this virtue will lessen. Should he suppress his charity, it will grow within him. A man will grow more charitable."
Your ideas of Psychic pressure may have some merit. I have not thought of it in this way.
There is also again another explaination. And again both may be true.
The man by his acting overtly, instead of secretly has let everyone know of his generousity. What was his intention?
Jesus tells us to give our alms in secret so that our Father will reward us openly. And likewise he says of the man who prays in front of people TO BE SEEN OF MEN has ALREADY recieved his reward. In other words, he has gotten what he wanted, attention of others to his "holiness."
There is no further reward. That sounds to me like his prayer will not be answered.
Intent is all important in these things. We can only know our own and that after much soul searching. But, like I said both your and my ideas can be true.
"In all cultures where it has existed, the entire range of human activity we think of as "magic" has been held as secret. The techniques and practices of the witch grow within "the power of silence". Talking too much can "empty your bag" so to speak."
You might be correct there.
"Many commenters on magic have indicated a real paranoia of what others might do or think if they knew the secrets of a magical organization."
That is true.
I propose here, that the real benefit of secrecy is that magic will not exist in the open. That which is kept within us unexpressed grows.
Again, I've never thought of it quite like that in regards to secrecy and magic, but it certainly is true with negative emotions, like holding grudges and forced abstinance from sexual activity. Catholic priest are a good example.
"That to which we give naming, shrinks away."
There I agree wholeheartedly. We think we know something when we name it. Doctors are a good example, as are Psychologists and pretty much all science. The practice of naming or defining something whether abstract or material seems to be a signal for the mind to shut off concerning that thing.
I think that is summed up in Genesis when God brought the animals to Adam to name, "..And whatsoever he named them, that was the name thereof.." To name is to put borders around something, to define it. What if our definition is only partial? We block ourselves from further learning.
"Bob, would you mind giving a comparison of that above to the teachings about silence in the initiatory grade of the Golden Dawn?
Why did the Golden Dawn choose to keep secrets?"
I don't know much about the organisation itself. I have read several books by it's members. Like many such organisations it went through a lot of splits and factions.
I do not hold it up as a good organisation. I would however recommend some of those books, The Mystical Qabala by Dion Fortune being, probably the best. Also such books by Israel Regardie, Macgregor Mathers and Wynn Wescott and Paul Foster Cases book on the Tarot.
True initiation come from God, not man. Ceremonies mean nothing. I was not into ceremonial magic, though I learned a lot of the principles. Msticism has more to do with disciplining yourself to use your mind. I used the Tarot cards as tools of meditation, never for divination.
I attempt to bypass the psychic realms. A lot of error can be avoided in this way. Rising on the planes, Meditating on the Source.
The initiations that I went through were for the most part when I was alone. And afterward study and meditation on qabalistic principals and Scripture helped me to realise what has happened to me. And it is still unfolding.
"Why did the Golden Dawn choose to keep secrets?"
I would imagine for the same reasons as any secret organisation. Your suggestions about insulating psychic energy may have something to do with it. And then there are the obvious reasons like ostrcising from family and society, etc.
There is a library and bookstore kind of near my home in Wheaton, IL. It is called the Theosophical Society. Back in decades past (I don't remeber when, maybe the 30's) they actually had effigies burnt on there lawn by angry neighbors.



Bob

[Guest]

I feel that secret esoteric knowledge is now openly revealed so that everything possible can be used to reverse the damage humans have done to this planet.

[Bob May]

"What sorts of dangers could there be in silencing one's thoughts? Could you offer a mechanism that might render such a practice dangerous?"
"I would be grateful to get an idea on how silence could be problematic. It's something that hasn't occurred to me."
He is correct. Don Juan's practices, (and Stopping the internal dialog is the most important and powerful of those practices), are extremely dangerous!!!
That cannot be stressed too strongly.
The goal of Don Juan concerning Carlos was that he "stop the world" thereby experiencing, not in theory but in actuallity witnessing another world. The sorcerers world.
He called it a "description of the world."
The experience of witnessing another "description of the world" cannot be imagined. Words cannot describe the enormity of the experience. It is an experience not a theory.
Imagine a bad acid experience. Now imagine that it does not stop when the substance dissipates from your bloodstream and cells in the body. Because it was not there to begin with.
Now, imagine that you are the only one who knows that this has happened to you and that no one would understand you if you explained to them what was happening to you. In fact that those friends who you might wish to confide in actually seemed to have a second face, superimposed on their "real face" and that that second "soul" or "being" that seemed to be them, but was not, was aware of what you were going through and was laughing about it. And was actually taunting you. Knowing your plight. Delighted.
Now imagine that same breed of taunting, hitchhiking spirt being superimposed on many, but not all, of the faces you came across.
And that same taunting spirit came across the television screen and from messages on billboards, and license plate numbers. And when you went to sleep at night, you did not lose cosciousness but dreamt and woke to a different wolrd each morning. Where perceptions were different than the day before. Afraid to sleep for the dreams it brought and afraid to wake for the new reality.
Now imagine that the thought occurs to you that you may never go back to the way things were.Bob

[Bob May]

"In the conventional meaning of mental silence, I have found the experience to always be restful and restorative.
Research that's available anywhere indicates that to spend some time in mental quietude every day results in tangible health benefits and reduced stress.
Practitioners of extended mental silence have quantifiable advantages in bodily functions, physical endurance, and the ability to focus and concentrate on complex tasks."
All of these things are true.
The differences in experiences, in my opinion, have to do with the extent, quality and intent of the individual.
What is the person trying to accomplish? Oneness with God as yogis and some monk sects? physical calm and mental peace as some people do? To touch with power for magic or healing?
All of these things can be the result of that particular goal which the practicioner is aiming for.
The goal pointed to in Castaneda's books is clear and is helped along with many other exercises, all poining to the same thing. To collapse our world view in order to make it possible for another world view to be experienced.
Remember, Don Juan said; "..any thought held in mind while stopping the internal dialog is properly a command."
Basically what happens in the practice of this system of knowlege is you take a peek at what lies immediately behind "this world." But Don Juan's purpose concerning Carlos was for him to see that alternative "description" and then to realise that it was just as arbitrary and just as much an illusion as this one. Then to shoot in between the two. To go beyond both worlds.
That was the trick of a "Man of Knowledge."
I don't know if Carlos ever got past the sorcerer's description.
Bob

[Guest]

I would suggest that stopping the inner conversation and stopping the world are not equivalent.
Carlos accomplished stopping the internal dialogue readily, with a littlw effort for several minutes at a time early on in his apprenticeship, where stopping the world happened later as a climax to a long effort that resulted in "seeing".
Also, mustering a command during mental quietude would be a different accomplishment than simply achieving mental silence.

[Guest]

Lightly and Bob May. Your contributions to this forum are well appreciated. Keep up the great work!

[Bob May]

"I would suggest that stopping the inner conversation and stopping the world are not equivalent."
No, they are not. The first is an excercise to accomplish the second.
"Carlos accomplished stopping the internal dialogue readily, with a littlw effort for several minutes at a time early on in his apprenticeship, where stopping the world happened later as a climax to a long effort that resulted in "seeing"."
There was an instance in the books when Don Juan said that Carlos had stopped the world. I think it was when they were observing a piece of old cloth caught on a cactus. It seemed to be breathing and looked like a dangerous beast with a beak. Later, when Don Juan was asked by Carlos why he was still speaking about stopping the world as if Carlos hadn't., when earlier he stated that he had, Don Juan said;
"Stopping the world comes a little at a time and then all at once." Small stoppings of the world like the above "optical illusion" example, if given credit as a gift to you from Power or Spirit and allowed to happen, will eventually culminate in a total break-down of your world view. That is the true experience of stopping the world.
It is a true "Initiation" in the full sense of the word.
I believe it to be symbolised by the 32nd path on the Tree of Life. And the "World" card in the Tarot deck. But it may encompass much more than that in qabalistic terms.
The point is there are lower "levels" of this experience.
In the same way, there are "levels" of the extent to which a person has mastered the excercise of stopping the internal dialog. I practiced it for about 1 1/2 years every chance I got. Every waking moment. Whenever I realised I was talking in my head I would immediately turn it off. (Unless, of course I had to communicate with people, etc.)
This, along with the other excercises resulted in my stopping the word.
I doubt that I have reached the full depth of inner silence.
It takes an enormous amount of self-discipline to do this and it does require practice. You get rusty. But, any amount is better than none. It is healthy, both mentally and physically. It should be taught in schools by someone who knows how to do it. It is dangerous.
Once you have stopped the world the first time it is much easier to do it again. You have "Cracked the Cosmic Egg."
I have done this many times. But it does not have to be such a negative experience if you realise that what you first experienced was just the first plane (or sub-plane) just outside of or behind this world we all agree upon.
It is a True spiritual experience, but an experience of a "lower plane" in the whole scheme of things. Not somwhere I would want to spend a lot of time. It is kind of like walking into a "biker bar" wearing a pink shirt.

"Also, mustering a command during mental quietude would be a different accomplishment than simply achieving mental silence."
It is not really "During." It is more like a desire or intent that you hold in your mind before-hand. At least in my experience. I work on a lot of projects in wood and metal fabrication. There are always puzzles and challenges to work out. Also puzzling verses in the Bible that I desire an answer for. These are in the "back of my mind."
The practice of silence can allow the answers to come through. Sometimes as an idea you were not capable of and sometimes it drops on you from an outside source, a conversation or a book just opens to the correct page, etc.
You might argue that that is a whole different catagory and would fall under the umbrella of Reaffirmations from the world around us. Or, for instance if the answer came to mind just at the moment of waking it might fall into the catagory of Dreaming.
But would you recognise these things if you had not practiced stopping the internal dialog? Or would they even have "come through your mind" if your mind was continually blocked with inner conversation?
It is all part of the same tapestry.
Bob

[Guest]

Stopping the world happens when spirit descends during times of inner silence. Only spirit can stop the world for a warrior. Once spirit stops the world for a man he becomes a true man of knowledge of the universe.

[Guest]

That makes sense, Bob.
Today I'm mostly making preperations to travel for the Holidays, and I may not be as attentive to our discussions as they merit.
But I will stop in and make comments in a bit.

[Guest]

Hope you have lots of fun, lightly

[Guest]

What's the difference between what Buddhists aim for with inner silence and all this don Juan stuff?

[Guest]

Is this "don Juan" stuff? Not to me. Carlos did not write about secrecy directly, even if we can see it around him.
I know another application of secrecy. It's an imaginary apple. If you try to imagine an apple sitting on your desk, it can be very difficult to hold the picture of that apple consistently, but if you use a little trick, you can make it a lot easier.
Just make the apple a secret. Lie about it to someone. Ideally, they will argue with you about it, and make it more solid.
You will see that the mental imsge of the apple will be easier to hold in your mind afterwards.
I'm not "lightly" but I understand the things he's talking about. I'll use "Candy".

[Vrill]

Quote:you've got to be careful about inner silence. It's not natural for people to be in prolonged states of inner silence. It could be dangerous.
Ah, is that so?
I think silence can be practiced in different ways.
If cultivated correctly there is no harm in it, and in fact it is quite restful and produces a palpable tranquility, focus and aliveness.
What is the point of all of our habitual and unconscious living and habitual noise, how much less harmful can that be?
Regarding, secrets. I have had many aperceptions that occur on a non-verbal level. Knowledge comes in many ways and speaking of it is impossible.
The saying "Those who know ... don't tell" is translated incorrectly.
Those who know, can't tell. They want to desperately, but they can't because there are no words for what they know!!!
But actually that's not even entirely true.
There are those with great skill, and they know and can tell and lead others to the truth.

[Guest]

It's nice to see some really advanced people posting in this forum. Great post, Vrill

[Bob May]

Hi Vrill,
"The saying "Those who know ... don't tell" is translated incorrectly.
Those who know, can't tell. They want to desperately, but they can't because there are no words for what they know!!!..."
That is very true. Spiritual things cannot be put into words. Or even if they are, they are interpreted in terms of hard cold matter, so the words lose their meaning somewhere between the one relating the experience and the listener's understanding.
"But actually that's not even entirely true.
There are those with great skill, and they know and can tell and lead others to the truth."
Yes, but they lead by pointing a direction not by description.
I always found it interesting that Jesus when asked what the Kingdom of Heaven was like never attempted a description of it. He told how it came or grew in a person's understanding of it. He compared it to how a seed grows or how leaven changed a lump of dough. These are parables that enable a person to recognise what is happening after the fact.
I like to call it 20/20 hindsight. You first have an experience, and only then, afterwards, do you recognise the description in Scripture. Parables point to underlying patterns, processes and principles, kind of like algebra.
And like algebra, they excercise the mind to work in a different way than we are accustomed to using our minds.
That is how good teachers teach spiritual things. By comparison and analogy. One who has experienced some of these things can recognise another who has also experienced them by how they approach the subject.
Bob

[Guest]

We all know about what to do if someone is insulting here. We understand that to take it personally is an act against ourselves. I think people should take these anonymous compliments the same way.
Nobody thinks you're advanced. Don't fall for that ****. At least don't start thinking it yourself. If we can't meet here as equals, then it can't be done anywhere.
Welcome Vrill. Glad to see you. No compliments needed.
Now I believe don Juan included something else in his definition of silence, something that should not be there. I do not believe that stoping the world is about silence.
By his own description, don Juan painted stoping the world as a big noisy affair where the structure of the world was halted, and perceptions of a greater reality streamed into our perception unfiltered by a world that was soley internal to the person.
I do not believe that silence itself can create such an explosive event.
I agree with Vrill that there is nothing in silence that can threaten us. Only the noise is threatening.

[Bob May]

"I do not believe that silence itself can create such an explosive event.
I agree with Vrill that there is nothing in silence that can threaten us. Only the noise is threatening."
Don Juan said that stopping the internal dialog was the most powerful tool that he gave to Carlos. You are right in that it was coupled with certain other perceptual excercises or "not-doings" that added to the effect of questioning the validity of normal "everyday cosciousness."
When you go down the path of questioning the validity of the common description ofthe world, one though leads to another, so to speak. If you follow those ideas with the intent to stop the world you will eventually reach that goal. If you have the intent to keep your perception intact you will not allow those ideas to influence your perceptions.
But, that was the goal for me and others. To stop the world.
But to assume that silence is perfectly safe is not completely correct either. Both Gopi Krishna and my teacher had spontaneous opening of the Kundalini while doing an apparently benign meditaion. It almost killed them both. Both men's lives hung by a thread for months on end before they got it under control.
Both stopped the world during that process, yet their experiences went way beyond merely stopping the world.
If you read Gopi Krishnas account in "Kundalini, the Evolutionary Energy in Man", you will get a much better picture.
Granted, what both men described is a rare occurance, but that is, again, a case of how far a person takes the meditations/excercises.
"I do not believe that silence itself can create such an explosive event."
Maybe not, but these two men were doing the exact same meditation and had the exact same experience. Gopi Krishna in India in 1939 was meditating on the "Thousand Pedaled Lotus" above the crown chakra. That was a traditionally Eastern meditation. John Scudder in 1974 in the United States was doing the "Point" meditation above the crown chakra. That is a meditation of the Western Mystic School of thought.
The experience came as a complete suprise to both men. Though it is written about in both traditions.
So, yes, there was another element besides silence. It was what their minds were concentrating upon, coupled with the practice of silence.
As I said before, silence is perfectly safe and healthy for the most part. But what is your intent during the silence? Do you want to become one with God? It may suprise you that you must "pass through the fire" to get there. Do you want peace and health? You can have some of that.
Do you want to stop the world? That can also be accomplished.
As I have said before, stopping the world is an earth shattering experience. And a true "initiation." But it is
not the end of the road, only the beginning.
It may not even have to be endured. It may be that it can be gone around, so to speak. I do not know. I only know it happened to me. But then my only system of belief at that time was Don Juan's.
In the study of the Tree of Life there is the "serpent's path" up the tree and the "path of the arrow" or "middle pillar" as it is sometimes called. The middle pillar is said to be safer and balanced. More of a Mystic's way. The serpent's path is more the way of the magician. Unbalanced and dangerous.
Bob

[seeitall]

Internal dialog fixes the AP in it's habitual position.
when dialog is stopped, AP can freely move, it may move
to the place of perceiveing energy directly (=?stoping the world). when we fall asleep, the dialog is stopped naturally.
well, I guess that's my theory for today.
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THIS IS WAR

[Bob May]

Hi seeitall,
I don't mean to place too fine a point on it, and I don't mean to pick on you, but you have some things mixed up.
"Internal dialog fixes the AP in it's habitual position."
I agree with that.
"..when dialog is stopped, AP can freely move,.."
Yes, it can, but that doesn't necessarily mean that it will. But let's just say I agree with that also.
"..it may move to the place of perceiveing energy directly (=?stoping the world)..."

"That is where I dissagree. Stopping the world is stopping your usual flow of description of the world. It can be a very chaotic experience. Perceiving energy directly is "seeing." By it's very nature, you must stop the world in order to see. But there are plenty of inmates in institutions for the mentally insane who have stopped the world but who have never and will never "see." Not in the way Don Juan meant. The eggs of luminous fibers and the lines of the earth, etc.
"... when we fall asleep, the dialog is stopped naturally."
No, the AP might move but the internal dialog does not stop.
In fact, any dialog you have while dreaming IS internal dialog. Unless, of course you talk in your sleep, then it is also external dialog.
Like I said, I'm not trying to pick on you and I think you know these things but are just being a little sloppy with the terminology.
I wouldn't normally say anything, but there are some new people trying to understand some of these terms and they might get confused.
Please excuse my tightassedness.Bob