3rd Attenion and Burning from within

[lex icon]

Lex!  I agree with you!  Enchantra
Enchantra, I am so sorry. Don't know how that could have happened. I must be slipping.  My ticket to freedom in peril. I will double my efforts to make sure this sort of thing doesn't happen again. ROFL

[Guest]

lex icon wrote:Lex!  I agree with you!  Enchantra
Enchantra, I am so sorry. Don't know how that could have happened. I must be slipping.  My ticket to freedom in peril. I will double my efforts to make sure this sort of thing doesn't happen again. ROFL
No worries, it was pretty much a fluke that I read that post anyway.  I still have you on ignore, so your posts are near invisible to me.  So based on that, the chances of us agreeing in the future are slime to nil.

[lex icon]

Oh come on now Enchantra. You know you read all my posts lol.

[Guest]

lex icon wrote:
Oh come on now Enchantra. You know you read all my posts lol.
I doubt it. I've known Enchantra for a long time and she says what she means. You are a little wordy and your posts are kind of exhausting. Im not ignoring your posts, but I am gleaming over them. Remember, concise and to the point is better!

[ninth octave]

Lex do you like Enchantra's avatar better than mine or something?

[Guest]

ninth octave wrote:

Lex do you like Enchantra's avatar better than mine or something?
Well hers has boobs so.... lol

[Nu Lang]

lex icon wrote:Correction Lex, LW has said he had sorcery experiences first, then he read CC and 'got it' as he himself had already known, NL
You see what opened for LW was his experience. After that experience he could see what DJ was getting at. Lex
NL what I am saying is that it hard to understand (the got it) without personal experience. By his own words LW says he had prior experience. That is how it was with me also. Prior experience before even reading CC.
I am not clear what you are trying to correct here????Well, for many people, they read CC and struggle with the syntax to try and understand the sorcery world. Many get confused along the way...take some meanings too literally and others not literally enough, lol. In LW's case, I read where he said, because he already had this stuff happening to him, once he did get to the books he immediately 'got it'. It seemed initially you were saying he finally got CC once he had the experiences to validate everything, and I was just pointing out the experiences came first is all.
Which I think is interesting. The sorcery world even outside of the lineage.

[lex icon]

It seemed initially you were saying he finally got CC once he had the experiences to validate everything, NL
No, I am saying without prior experience the meaning would probably escape and not be seen.

[Nu Lang]

Well, I agree...experience is key...morning to ya

[lex icon]

Ninth,
The reason I rarely respond to you is because you usually want to bend everything around and make it about God and your faith. Some things just don't lend themselves to that. I suggest you start a thread about your passion for God and those interested in that will respond.

[ninth octave]

lex icon wrote:

Ninth,
The reason I rarely respond to you is because you usually want to bend everything around and make it about God and your faith. Some things just don't lend themselves to that. I suggest you start a thread about your passion for God and those interested in that will respond.
Lex,
That is a poor excuse to not respond. I don't need to start another topic on God . I've been asking you solely how you " burned from within". You leave this part out about yourself.  I know your perception of God changed big time somehow. I was wondering how this happened and are you a better man today for it.  Did this happen when you 'blacked out" in the Tensegrity seminar as you came to your totality or something?
Or did you begin to lose your faith before reading  CC's books. This is the source of my dogging. 
Ninth

[Guest]

ninth octave wrote:
lex icon wrote:

Ninth,
The reason I rarely respond to you is because you usually want to bend everything around and make it about God and your faith. Some things just don't lend themselves to that. I suggest you start a thread about your passion for God and those interested in that will respond.
Lex,
That is a poor excuse to not respond. I don't need to start another topic on God . I've been asking you solely how you " burned from within". You leave this part out about yourself.  I know your perception of God changed big time somehow. I was wondering how this happened and are you a better man today for it.  Did this happen when you 'blacked out" in the Tensegrity seminar as you came to your totality or something?
Or did you begin to lose your faith before reading  CC's books. This is the source of my dogging. 
Ninth Yeah Lex, I'd be interested to see what you have to say about this.

[lex icon]

Ninth ,
 I will respond about the "burning from within" in this way. I have spoke of it on several occasions and been quite open about it. You just don't recognise it as such. Which has really been my point about this all along. Our idea of burning from within fostered by our shallow interpretations of what we think DJ meant via CC do match the actual experience hence the disconnect.
The same thing happens in Christian mystic circles. The idea of divine union as put forth by such people as St John of the Cross does not match the actual experience of it. So much so that for mystics who are actually experiencing this go years waiting for it to happen all the while they are actually living it. It was that way for me also.

[ninth octave]

lex icon wrote:

 Ninth ,
 I will respond about the "burning from within" in this way. I have spoke of it on several occasions and been quite open about it. You just don't recognise it as such. Which has really been my point about this all along. Our idea of burning from within fostered by our shallow interpretations of what we think DJ meant via CC do match the actual experience hence the disconnect.
The same thing happens in Christian mystic circles. The idea of divine union as put forth by such people as St John of the Cross does not match the actual experience of it. So much so that for mystics who are actually experiencing this go years waiting for it to happen all the while they are actually living it. It was that way for me also.
Professor Lex,
I think CC's books were trying to confirm that we are all part of field/being. Maybe it took psychedelics to experience this initiation. A direct experience is the only 'proof 'of the conscious aspect of the unified field. This mass sameness being our collective underlying 'conscious' essence.

[Bob May]

lex icon wrote:

Correction Lex, LW has said he had sorcery experiences first, then he read CC and 'got it' as he himself had already known, NL
You see what opened for LW was his experience. After that experience he could see what DJ was getting at. Lex
NL what I am saying is that it hard to understand (the got it) without personal experience. By his own words LW says he had prior experience. That is how it was with me also. Prior experience before even reading CC.

   Don Juan said that stopping the world came a little at a time and then all at once.
No truer words have been spoken but I couldn't have imagined it before it happened to me.
Then there was no doubt in my mind. It was a perfect description.
I've found the same with biblical spiritual experiences. You have an experience, and then you see it in scripture and recognise it.
I think of it as 20/20 hindsight.
But some of those have taken years to sort out and I am just making progress on some things lately.
I can't find your post but you said something about realizing you have been living something all along and then realising what it was.
That is another aspect that I have found to be true.
It is not "hard to understand without personal experience." It is impossible.
You bring up some good points Lex.

[Guest]

May I interact on this matter? If personal experience is a mixture of the unique tonal of an individual plus the specific way to connect with the nagual (that res cogitata which canno as well be "cogitata" ex definitio) I could also make another hypothesis: once gone into the nagual, i could return back maybe re-connecting to another specific interaction of tonal and nagual. How this could happen i ignore.



What do you think?



regards,



Naga

[Bob May]

Naga wrote:
May I interact on this matter? If personal experience is a mixture of the unique tonal of an individual plus the specific way to connect with the nagual (that res cogitata which canno as well be "cogitata" ex definitio) I could also make another hypothesis: once gone into the nagual, i could return back maybe re-connecting to another specific interaction of tonal and nagual. How this could happen i ignore.
What do you think?
regards,
NagaTry that again in English, Naga.

[lex icon]

my understanding of the 3rd
attention is complete mastery of perception and experiencing all that is
humanly possible... are you saying you could jump off a cliff and
survive? Epiqwynn
I was just going over this thread and pulled this out from earlier. This is a good example of what DJ was talking about when he pointed out that we are not at all in control of our monumental edifices of speculation. Not only do we get the construction of the main edifice underway but also maintain construction narratives that branch off and equally we have no control over those either. I will explain.
Epiqwynn has stated above quite clearly what she believes 3rd attention is. This complete mastery of perception etc. (Although I doubt she has a clue what that could be.) Then draws the applied conclusion, one could jump off a cliff and survive,  (again based on speculation) not only referring to CC's account of his jumping off a cliff, but holding it against me as a clear example of why I could not possibly have burned from within. This also relates back to the stubborn idea that burning from within means physically leaving the planet that CC reported is how DJ and his party left.
But here we have the first inconsistency of which Epiqwynn has no control. In her rush to discount what I am pointing out regarding burning from within she has overlooked that CC did not burn from within according to her assessment of burning from within. The biggest indication, again using her standard of assessment, CC did not leave the planet, which she holds synonymous with burning from within. CC's reports of jumping off a cliff were from the 1970's I believe. He was writing and teaching here on this planet in first and second attention long after this.
So we can say then, that jumping from a cliff and surviving has little to do with 3rd attention and burning from within, even by Epiqwynn's standards. Such a physical leap would at best be an indication of 2nd attention.
So what I am proposing Epiqwynn and others, is that you retire any idea you have regarding the 3rd attention and begin to inquire as to what it might be referring to. To begin such an inquiry one must be able to put aside, at least temporarily, this idea that 3rd attention only means lighting up all internal emanations all at once and then physically disappearing and leaving the planet.  Physically disappearing and leaving the planet are well within the domain of 2nd attention, is it not?
We have ideas about 1st and 2nd attention that seem to be within our grasp and we seem to be able to make significant headway regarding these ideas and how CC and DJ have presented them. But what really distinguishes 2nd attention from 3rd attention? Certainly not the "hallowed 3rd attention event" of physical disappearance. Once we take that off the table all we are left with is the quagmire and we are back to the ancient sorcerers. Not easy to get past their high accomplishments, yet the new seers did!

[lex icon]

During a certain 2-3 year period of my life I was undergoing extensive spiritual practice, prayer, fasting, meditation, solitude, retreats, and silence etc. Engaging reality and myself as deeply as I possibly could through the tools and practices I had at hand at that time.
Such practice was producing an acute “spiritual” distress in me of which I was at a loss to account for. All I knew was that I had to continue, which I did. An old Jewish saying comes to mind.
One is hanging by a thread over a dark abyss and a hurricane is approaching and no amount of spiritual advice can help.
And that was it. Something was approaching and it was producing in me a sense of dread and awe. At times as I lay on my bed there were moments when it seemed like the internal landscape was momentarily illumined as if by lightning. I am not being poetic here, that is what it was like. With each flash I strained to accustom myself to that landscape. Straining to see. With each glimpse I became more alert acutely ready for the next flash. Then in the height of this readiness the next flash came and instead of just a landscape, this time there was something there and it jolted me and made me recoil in panic dripping in dread! But there was nowhere to run or hide and I would have if it were an option. There were a couple more intense luminous jolts, each jolt more revealing and closer!
Then it happened with the final flash there was a sound but not just any sound. It was as if the fog horn of the Queen Mary ship had just sounded right inside my head! It felt like someone had taken a stout iron bar and smashed my head with it. The thud made me nauseous and literally “shattered” me into countless pieces. I was aware I was each shattered piece, and each piece was aware of this presence that had delivered the blow. It was devastating. I was utterly helpless and beyond hope. All life drained out of me. The image was of laying dead on a battle field a sword blow had torn me open from neck to thigh and my life just seeped away.
For three days I barely left my bed unable to communicate, ever aware of this state worse than death, there was no relief. Then suddenly, I was filled with power and energy like nothing I had ever tasted before. I was strengthened and relieved. Power and energy surged through every fiber of my being. I remember thinking if I were to just walk by someone who had cancer they would be healed.
For the next few months the power and energy remained and I started to accustom myself to this new state which began to feel normal. But curiously I had been fully admitted to the landscape that was being illumined by the flashes. Not only was I walking around in my everyday life but I was also conscious of being “there”. I was being given a grand tour of “there”. In particular I was being shown the unassailability of that “place”. I was also being shown an array of weaponry at my disposal that was not for defensive purposes but totally offensive for the purpose of assailing that which could be assailed. I was being prepared for battle.
Delilah, personally I think Tales Of Power can be very entertaining but are not always helpful to our understanding.

[lex icon]

Eyes I dare not meet in dreams, in death’s other kingdom, too, these do not appear.  TS Elliot, The Hollow Men
http://www.youtube.com/wa...qumE&feature=related

[ninth octave]

lex icon wrote:

my understanding of the 3rd attention is complete mastery of perception and experiencing all that is humanly possible... are you saying you could jump off a cliff and survive? Epiqwynn
I was just going over this thread and pulled this out from earlier. This is a good example of what DJ was talking about when he pointed out that we are not at all in control of our monumental edifices of speculation. Not only do we get the construction of the main edifice underway but also maintain construction narratives that branch off and equally we have no control over those either. I will explain.
Epiqwynn has stated above quite clearly what she believes 3rd attention is. This complete mastery of perception etc. (Although I doubt she has a clue what that could be.) Then draws the applied conclusion, one could jump off a cliff and survive,  (again based on speculation) not only referring to CC's account of his jumping off a cliff, but holding it against me as a clear example of why I could not possibly have burned from within. This also relates back to the stubborn idea that burning from within means physically leaving the planet that CC reported is how DJ and his party left.
But here we have the first inconsistency of which Epiqwynn has no control. In her rush to discount what I am pointing out regarding burning from within she has overlooked that CC did not burn from within according to her assessment of burning from within. The biggest indication, again using her standard of assessment, CC did not leave the planet, which she holds synonymous with burning from within. CC's reports of jumping off a cliff were from the 1970's I believe. He was writing and teaching here on this planet in first and second attention long after this.
So we can say then, that jumping from a cliff and surviving has little to do with 3rd attention and burning from within, even by Epiqwynn's standards. Such a physical leap would at best be an indication of 2nd attention.
So what I am proposing Epiqwynn and others, is that you retire any idea you have regarding the 3rd attention and begin to inquire as to what it might be referring to. To begin such an inquiry one must be able to put aside, at least temporarily, this idea that 3rd attention only means lighting up all internal emanations all at once and then physically disappearing and leaving the planet.  Physically disappearing and leaving the planet are well within the domain of 2nd attention, is it not?
We have ideas about 1st and 2nd attention that seem to be within our grasp and we seem to be able to make significant headway regarding these ideas and how CC and DJ have presented them. But what really distinguishes 2nd attention from 3rd attention? Certainly not the "hallowed 3rd attention event" of physical disappearance. Once we take that off the table all we are left with is the quagmire and we are back to the ancient sorcerers. Not easy to get past their high accomplishments, yet the new seers did!

But what really distinguishes 2nd attention from 3rd attention?
Being able to discern and remember the steps and actions that caused you to pause while being on top of that proverbial cliff hanger. It was the biggest decision that CC would attempt to make. In his mind he did jump off the cliff. He made the major move that would rid him of his logical deductions and practical reasoning. For all we know CC could have stood on top of a cluttered table top and jumped declaring his freedom from within. The point was CC leaped into the nagual.

[Sedna]

ninth octave wrote:
But what really distinguishes 2nd attention from 3rd attention?
Being able to discern and remember the steps and actions that caused you to pause while being on top of that proverbial cliff hanger. It was the biggest decision that CC would attempt to make. In his mind he did jump off the cliff. He made the major move that would rid him of his logical deductions and practical reasoning. For all we know CC could have stood on top of a cluttered table top and jumped declaring his freedom from within. The point was CC leaped into the nagual.
Perhaps I can shed some light here. 
First consider, however, that CC's description is only a description of something he saw or experienced and not an actuality.  Consider that what the actuality is, whatever it is, is like an invisible elephant that few have caught but brief glimpses of...and that their explainations need to be taken in the same way as one would take the seven blind men's descriptions of the elephant...one says it is a wall and another says it is a tree.  Then, consider what it took for CC and the relatively few others to have caught the briefest of glimpses and consider that you also would have to do that, and then more, if you ever hoped to see what it was he was describing. 
People in these groups can come up with an agreement as to what it means...but the agreement is without value or merit if one wasn't actually glimpsing the elephant.  I wouldn't tell anyone to throw out their inventory, but it certainly wouldn't hurt.
There are two attentions that one can readily experience in their daily life.  The human and the soul.  The human contends itself with the daily affairs and the human journey.  It has emotions and an ego.  It is the navigator of its ship.  And then there is the soul, that contends itself with one's spiritual journey which often has nothing to do with one's daily journey.  The human is the doer and the soul the observer.  My description is probably piss poor, and for that I am sorry, but hopefully it is sufficient enough for you to get the picture.  If you are following so far, if you can see this in yourself, then the next step is to realize that you toggle between the two of these with ease.  First and second attention. 
Third attention is what you get when you die.  Or, when you have a near death experience.  It is not available to you will in your human body.  But it includes a knowledge of your soul.  Who you are, not as a human, but as a soul.  And a knowledge of the world in which your soul lives.  It contain no knowledge of your human or your human journey.  Just as one cannot enter third attention while alive...one cannot enter first attention while dead. 
Hopefully that is enough for you to get what CC meant when he came up with the terms. 
As to the cliff scene, I am sorry to bust people's bubble...but what happened in the books primarily happened in his dreaming body and not in real life. It is relatively easy to jump off a cliff in dreaming and wake up in LA...providing one was in LA to begin with.

[ninth octave]

Greetings Sedna,
  CC of course would be dead or near dead if he did jump off that cliff.  Great insight into the 3rd Attention and it likened to a near death or death experience or shaman's death.

[ninth octave]

lex icon wrote:

During a certain 2-3 year period of my life I was undergoing extensive spiritual practice, prayer, fasting, meditation, solitude, retreats, and silence etc. Engaging reality and myself as deeply as I possibly could through the tools and practices I had at hand at that time.
Such practice was producing an acute “spiritual” distress in me of which I was at a loss to account for. All I knew was that I had to continue, which I did. An old Jewish saying comes to mind.
One is hanging by a thread over a dark abyss and a hurricane is approaching and no amount of spiritual advice can help.
And that was it. Something was approaching and it was producing in me a sense of dread and awe. At times as I lay on my bed there were moments when it seemed like the internal landscape was momentarily illumined as if by lightning. I am not being poetic here, that is what it was like. With each flash I strained to accustom myself to that landscape. Straining to see. With each glimpse I became more alert acutely ready for the next flash. Then in the height of this readiness the next flash came and instead of just a landscape, this time there was something there and it jolted me and made me recoil in panic dripping in dread! But there was nowhere to run or hide and I would have if it were an option. There were a couple more intense luminous jolts, each jolt more revealing and closer!
Then it happened with the final flash there was a sound but not just any sound. It was as if the fog horn of the Queen Mary ship had just sounded right inside my head! It felt like someone had taken a stout iron bar and smashed my head with it. The thud made me nauseous and literally “shattered” me into countless pieces. I was aware I was each shattered piece, and each piece was aware of this presence that had delivered the blow. It was devastating. I was utterly helpless and beyond hope. All life drained out of me. The image was of laying dead on a battle field a sword blow had torn me open from neck to thigh and my life just seeped away.
For three days I barely left my bed unable to communicate, ever aware of this state worse than death, there was no relief. Then suddenly, I was filled with power and energy like nothing I had ever tasted before. I was strengthened and relieved. Power and energy surged through every fiber of my being. I remember thinking if I were to just walk by someone who had cancer they would be healed.
For the next few months the power and energy remained and I started to accustom myself to this new state which began to feel normal. But curiously I had been fully admitted to the landscape that was being illumined by the flashes. Not only was I walking around in my everyday life but I was also conscious of being “there”. I was being given a grand tour of “there”. In particular I was being shown the unassailability of that “place”. I was also being shown an array of weaponry at my disposal that was not for defensive purposes but totally offensive for the purpose of assailing that which could be assailed. I was being prepared for battle.

>
 Wow, don't know how to touch this. You are describing death or near death very keenly, Lex.  In hindsight what died in you and what became energized thereafter?  When you say you had a split perception of being "there". Where was "there "?

[Sedna]

ninth octave wrote:
Greetings Sedna,
  CC of course would be dead or near dead if he did jump off that cliff.  Great insight into the 3rd Attention and it likened to a near death or death experience or shaman's death.   
It is unclear whether the shaman's death would produce the same effect. 
The stunning effect of reaching the 3rd attention, at least through NDE, is that no one wants to come back.  The relief from this form is so pronounced as to forever after alter the eperiencer's life.  If someone could go there at will it is unlikely that they would return.  From the technical aspect, it comes from oxygen deprivation and an activation of certain areas in the brain not normally accessed.  While there are people who work to achieve this, I have not seen that in toltec forums where technical aspects are ignored in favor of debating theoretical concepts and meanings of words.  Also, the human life is forgotten...how would one even know to return?
I believe CC also said that one cannot get there while alive...but I could be mistaken about that.