without changing anything about their basic nature

[spareenergy]

Hi Nagual Lone Wolf and everyone, I have been reading some of the posts here .I think great work has been done here in the forums.I thank everyone for their
contributions for they have been very helpful to me.




In "The Art of Dreaming" don Juan says "

" The problem with the old sorcerers was
that they learned wonderful things, but it was on the basis of their unadulterated lower selves," don Juan went on.The inorganic beings became their
allies, and by means of deliberate examples, their allies taught the old sorcerers marvels. Their allies performed the actions, and the old sorcerers were
guided step by step to copy those actions; but the old sorcerers did so without changing anything about their basic nature." When
he talks about "their basic nature",does he mean the basic nature of the actions or the basic nature of their selves(their unadultered lower
selves)?

[Nagual LoneWolf]

We without the allies would not have evidence we need to allow the shifts we need to change.

[spareenergy]

thanks wolf.

[dreamways]

spareenergy
wrote:

When he talks about "their basic nature", does he mean the basic nature of the actions or
the basic nature of their selves (their unadulterated lower selves)?

I'm pretty sure he meant the basic nature of themselves. In my opinion, what you have to ask yourself here is "why?" It is easy to put down
the old sorcerers out of context, I would hope that you don't fall into that way of thinking. The reason why the old sorcerers didn't give a ****
about "changing" or "seeking freedom" is because it was irrelevant to them. They had already dreamed themselves here from another world,
they had already made themselves into what was necessary for this world, they had nothing left to do but reap the rewards of their journey. That's the
secret of the original "old sorcerers", they were visitors that stuck around for awhile and then left.




This is one of the most important thing that you can learn from them, that not only are there other worlds which you can dream yourself into permanently, but,
there are worlds which allow you to do things that you can't do here. It's like the story of superman having powers on earth but not on krypton.
Think of krypton as the old sorcerer home world, and this earth as one of their playgrounds. In this world, they were able to able to move the assemblage
point of pretty much anything they ran into, so, they got to play god. Thousands of years have passed, and their influence can still be felt here.

[spareenergy]

In the translantion of AOD to my language there were severeal mistakes which I spotted ,did my version of translation of those paragraphs and posted them on
the net for people to see and compare. This one was one of those paragraphs with a few mistakes.I couldn't be sure if I am correct , so I asked. I
wasn't judging the old sorcerers.


I did not know the old sorcerers were from another world.I thought they were human beings .


When it comes to freedom, I want freedom under one condition only , otherwise I don't want it because that freedom would be my hell.Well, I have to learn,
to think , rethink ,decide and carefully select my words and form my sentences of intent when it comes to freedom. That is of course just supposing that I
could do it.

[Bob May]

"..but the old sorcerers did so without changing anything about their basic nature." When he talks about "their basic
nature",does he mean the basic nature of the actions or the basic nature of their selves(their unadultered lower selves)?"




Their selves. Power and the lower nature don't mix well.

[Vrill]

dreamways wrote:


spareenergy
wrote:

When he talks about "their basic nature", does he mean the basic nature of the actions or the basic nature of their
selves (their unadulterated lower selves)?

I'm pretty sure he meant the basic nature of themselves. In my opinion, what you have to ask yourself here is "why?" It is easy to put down
the old sorcerers out of context, I would hope that you don't fall into that way of thinking. The reason why the old sorcerers didn't give a ****
about "changing" or "seeking freedom" is because it was irrelevant to them. They had already dreamed themselves here from another world,
they had already made themselves into what was necessary for this world, they had nothing left to do but reap the rewards of their journey. That's the
secret of the original "old sorcerers", they were visitors that stuck around for awhile and then left.




This is one of the most important thing that you can learn from them, that not only are there other worlds which you can dream yourself into permanently,
but, there are worlds which allow you to do things that you can't do here. It's like the story of superman having powers on earth but not on krypton.
Think of krypton as the old sorcerer home world, and this earth as one of their playgrounds. In this world, they were able to able to move the assemblage
point of pretty much anything they ran into, so, they got to play god. Thousands of years have passed, and their influence can still be felt here.


Interesting points Dreamways. So you are saying the "old sorcerers" are related to the progenitors of Mankind?




In other words, they were at the point of Cosmo-genesis where Spirit was descending into Matter, science was but a dream and magic was afoot?





When the city of Atlantis stood serene above the sea,


Long time before our time when the world was free,


Those were the days.




Golden cymbals flying on ocarina sounds,


Before wild medusas serpents gave birth to hell


Disguised as heaven.




Those were the days, yes they were, those were the days.


Those were their ways


Miracles everywhere!


Where are they now?


They're gone!

Those were their ways, yes they were, those were their ways.


Those were the days, yes they were, those were the days.




Tie your painted shoes and dance, blue daylight in your hair,


Overhead a noiseless eagle fans a flame.


Wonder everywhere.




-- Ginger Baker and Mike Taylor

[dreamways]

Vrill wrote:

Interesting points Dreamways. So you are saying the "old sorcerers" are related to the progenitors of Mankind?



No, mankind was already here, minding its own business, when the old sorcerers blew into town. They spawned human sorcery. Somehow, certain
human beings were able to comprehend that the visitors had dreamed themselves here, and were able to learn from and copy them. That would have been a time
when "miracles were everywhere". Sorcerers who originated here on earth, at that time, seem to have joined the ranks of the death defiers as well
as scattered to other worlds - where they would have an energetic advantage over the natives. If they were benevolent or predatory is anybody's guess.

[Vrill]

dreamways wrote:


Vrill wrote:

Interesting points Dreamways. So you are saying the "old sorcerers" are related to the progenitors of Mankind?



No, mankind was already here, minding its own business, when the old sorcerers blew into town. They spawned human sorcery. Somehow, certain
human beings were able to comprehend that the visitors had dreamed themselves here, and were able to learn from and copy them. That would have been a time
when "miracles were everywhere". Sorcerers who originated here on earth, at that time, seem to have joined the ranks of the death defiers as well
as scattered to other worlds - where they would have an energetic advantage over the natives. If they were benevolent or predatory is anybody's guess.





Do you think they were a necessary Force in for Humanity's evolution, or may have played a part in that process?

[dreamways]

Vrill wrote:

Do you think they were a necessary Force in for Humanity's evolution, or may have played a part in that process?



That's a good question. Humanity was definitely impacted, it seems to me that there was a reaction more than anything else, towards reason
and wakefulness. The best defense against a dreaming incursion is to not dream; bolstering reason and the tonal would make one less vulnerable to the
non-linear dreaming of the nagual.

[Guest]